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Game discussion / Re: Raiding questions.
« Last post by ratzlaff on Today at 06:58:51 am »
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- you'd definitely want to raid (hostile) groups that are a threat to you, or could be, to throw them back on the progression ladder, and gain an advantage for future encounters,
this is probably the most compelling reason to raid, and will likely be the sole true purpose for quite a while to come

I can see the point in this, but raiding them would require you to make a huge investment in the first place, not sure if its worth it in the long run. But this could be viable.

With regard to your other points:

This game, while I enjoy it very much, even in alpha state, is not eve. You cannot just wish for a larger playerbase.
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Game discussion / Re: Raiding questions.
« Last post by Warbot on Today at 04:12:09 am »
2. In the current state, raiding is not cost-effective
Why does everyone expect raiding to be a huge gain?!

You can get a huge gain if you find a poorly defended base with a huge hoarder inside, which isn't that rare I heard... except chests, but that's w.i.p. I guess.

IF you would always make a plus from raiding other people, or even in most cases, just think for a moment what would happen,
now tell me again if it should be cost efficient or not!


...as for the "why raid" question, my "vision" would be one were noobs are simply of no interest to raiding, which might be the case already,
- you'd want to raid to fight for resource nodes (which is going to be nullified with the coming changes due to how it will be totally pointless to invest huge resources to raid a place that holds a resource node that will just vanish shortly, to respawn elsewhere)
- you'd definitely want to raid (hostile) groups that are a threat to you, or could be, to throw them back on the progression ladder, and gain an advantage for future encounters,
this is probably the most compelling reason to raid, and will likely be the sole true purpose for quite a while to come
- you might want to raid for the sake of griefing other players, people do that, and if your group dominates a server and you have plenty of resources, there is little else to do, so ...

I'd like to point out a few more issues, that I have mentioned before, but well, I'll do anyways:
- as of now, there are NO raiding mechanics in place, looking at other games, be it EVE or Salem or many other games, there are a lot of places to "get some inspiration" in that matter...
- due to no raiding mechanics, raiding someone / some group who is offline is beyond simple, which means you need to have a group that covers all time zones to be able to defend, which would require a much larger player base and MUCH larger servers, which does not align with the visions of server size that the devs mentioned so far, this is a critical contradiction and needs to be dealt with (!)
- more crafting, higher lvl pve content requirering higher tech, and vast areas with mid lvl content that just require mid lvl crafting products to do, would be one idea to use as a base for a player driven economy, which could be a basis to generate demand for certain resources available only/mostly through fixed resource nodes, which then could be a basis for meaningful pvp and raiding, this all is a rather complex field, but vastly misaligns with the devs current "vision" of the game, because it would also require much larger servers both in space and player count, whereas fixed resource nodes to fight over would be the thing to do, and the "decaying nodes" that the devs currently envision would make raiding mostly useless,
yes there are problems with fixed nodes in the current game, which come again due to the tiny size of both the map and the player base

To sum it up, this game has the potential to be pretty nice in PvE terms,
but to make a leap into meaningful PvP, there'd need to be a huge change in the direction the devs are currently going,
and by how they envision it, I start to doubt that this is even possible.
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Game discussion / Re: Raiding questions.
« Last post by Lurler on January 14, 2019, 09:31:02 pm »
1. Dear Devs, is there a vision/concept how raiding should play out in the finished project? What benefits should the player get by doing it?
Frankly, it's not something we can answer definitively :)
We have our rough vision and requirements that we want to fulfill, e.g. we don't want people raiding noobs, instead we want high-level players to engage in fighting over points of control.
But how exactly all is going to work together - no one knows, we just implement incremental changes and react accordingly.
In one of the next updates we are going to add automated turrets which will offer active defenses to your bases. And there are many other changes.

2. In the current state, raiding is not cost-effective, mostly due to the fact, that when you have breached several wall rings, you still need to destroy caches with bombs, one of the most expensive items in the game. Am I missing something here? Is this intended? (I tried pickaxe/axe, but the damage was abysmal, could take years to destroy even wood chests)
When the are other planned parts of defense/attack will be in place we will significantly reduce HP of chests or even make them unlocked again.
As I mentioned - this is iterative process and we will be changing stuff along as we add more.

3. Will the bombs stay that expensive relative to the other items?
Yes. We don't want people attacking everything left and right :)
Our vision is to create a game that is more than just ducking it out between each other. We want many different types of creative cooperation to be possible.
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Game discussion / Raiding questions.
« Last post by ratzlaff on January 14, 2019, 06:29:02 am »
First, I have limited exp. with raiding, so some of the questions may just be due to my limited knowledge.

1. Dear Devs, is there a vision/concept how raiding should play out in the finished project? What benefits should the player get by doing it?

2. In the current state, raiding is not cost-effective, mostly due to the fact, that when you have breached several wall rings, you still need to destroy caches with bombs, one of the most expensive items in the game. Am I missing something here? Is this intended? (I tried pickaxe/axe, but the damage was abysmal, could take years to destroy even wood chests)

3. Will the bombs stay that expensive relative to the other items?

Thanks!

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Ideas and suggestions / Re: My Ideas
« Last post by Warbot on January 12, 2019, 08:24:11 am »
- From what the devs wrote, and I am hoping its final, the map will not get much bigger. They will add one or several biomes, but thats it.
- Right now, scouting is a thing. I had to do it, and I got important information that I used later (Trading, Industry, Raid).
- We are not talking about UNLIMITED teleportation, its will probably be a high-tech building and limited like land claims.

Actually something like a mount or a bike would solve the walking problem better.

I heard they are not intending to expand the map much, but I hope they'll rethink that someday,
as is, the map is maybe good for 40-50 people at most, so even if you had just 250 people on one server, you'd need about 10 times the map size to make it playable.
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Ideas and suggestions / Re: My Ideas
« Last post by ratzlaff on January 11, 2019, 10:03:33 pm »
- From what the devs wrote, and I am hoping its final, the map will not get much bigger. They will add one or several biomes, but thats it.
- Right now, scouting is a thing. I had to do it, and I got important information that I used later (Trading, Industry, Raid).
- We are not talking about UNLIMITED teleportation, its will probably be a high-tech building and limited like land claims.

Actually something like a mount or a bike would solve the walking problem better.
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Ideas and suggestions / Re: My Ideas
« Last post by Warbot on January 11, 2019, 06:44:17 pm »
"Why would you" was an actual question, and you found an use case:

Teleport to other base, gather, grab ressources and walk back.  I did not think of that.
Downside: Still a lot of walking.
Might depend on how much the device costs.

Why is it bad for pvp?

Well, assuming a bigger map and more players, a few things would be different:
- scouting would be a thing, it would be harder to find and know relevant bases of possible enemies or possible valuable raid targets
- due to distance, any group could only reach so far, as walking costs time, and attacking anything "far away" would need to have a good reason to do so, sacrificing time for travelling and leaving the own base undefended in that time, or splitting the group for prolonged periods to act at different spots at once.

This concept is known as "power projection" which means that a group that is stronger than their neighbours can still only reach over a certain distance without stretching their power too thin to stay competitive.

Unrestricted teleporting, actually, pretty much any form of teleporting, would bypass this limitation and increase the range in that any one group can operate, up to the point where it can reach the whole map again with little effort.
Which nullifies the benefits of a bigger map.
Note: this mainly applies to pvp or "mainly pvp" servers, and is not as much of an issue on a "pve only" or "mostly pve" servers, though there are not yet such distinctions, at least that I know of.
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Ideas and suggestions / Re: My Ideas
« Last post by ratzlaff on January 11, 2019, 10:12:04 am »
"Why would you" was an actual question, and you found an use case:

Teleport to other base, gather, grab ressources and walk back.  I did not think of that.
Downside: Still a lot of walking.
Might depend on how much the device costs.

Why is it bad for pvp?

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Ideas and suggestions / Re: My Ideas
« Last post by Warbot on January 11, 2019, 07:47:55 am »
Not playing that game here bro.

Thats my concern at the moment. Why would you?

So you do not "play" a "game" here?
Then what is that?!

I see that you disagree with "teleporting naked" because YOU see no use case, and assume there is none, and that everyone should agree with you as your opinion is the only one valid truth here.

Yet, you provide no reasoning at all, why you do not like that restriction, or why it would be bad.

See?


Coming back to EVE-comparisons, there, you can not move anything by "magic" or teleportation, yet, the universe is MUCH bigger, and it takes hours to get from one end to another, even if you would be friendly with all the different groups and people you'd encounter on the way... ^^
Yea I'll try to keep it short.
In EVE, you can also only teleport your character, not your ship, not the implants in your clone body, not the contents of your cargo bay, nothing.
Yet, it is tremendously useful.

A use case, to give you just one:
You have a main base and satellite bases in different corners of the world for the different resources that are there, like, one near the tripple clay, one in the south for rubber, one in the north for oil berries,... just as a purely hypothetical example.
It would be a nice thing to be able to teleport around and do a bit of gather here and there, saving a lot of time walking.
You would also save time while hauling the resources from there, as you'd only need to walk the way once instead of twice (only back to your main base, instead of there and back).

But even a this much restricted teleporting ability would be something I'd object for the reason of being bad for PvP, but ofc totally viable on a PvE server.

Now, do you have actual arguments or reasoning, or is stating your opinion all you can do?   :P
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Ideas and suggestions / Re: My Ideas
« Last post by ratzlaff on January 11, 2019, 07:08:39 am »
Not playing that game here bro.

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But why should a player ever use teleporting if you can only do it naked? No use case. Teleportation would be useless.

Thats my concern at the moment. Why would you?
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