Author Topic: CF test report by Ophidios  (Read 355 times)

Ophidios

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CF test report by Ophidios
« on: June 25, 2017, 11:11:36 am »
So, after playing for a few hours today, I do have some initial early thoughts. First of all, it looks and feels much better than the last time I played it! Definitely legitimately feels like the game has come a long way.

My first real big thought is that it takes a long time for the player to reach a stable point. By that, what I mean is for the player to be able to safely (or at least semi-safely) log out without fear of having stuff destroyed, ganked, etc. I played for a few hours this morning, and just to get into a state where I have some form of storage to put excess in was a lot of effort, let alone trying to setup walls and a door. And since I can't regain materials by disassembling things, in the early game I effectively need to have *at minimum* a furnace, campfire, bedroll, and workbench. Just trying to assemble walls and a door to protect these few things takes a lot more time than can be casually dedicated.

And by the time I quit playing today, I already had an armorer's and weaponmaking bench as well. This requires a larger amount of space, which then also requires more walls to try and safely protect these things. And since I was acquiring more materials than I could carry, I also needed a storage box as well. Trying to grind up to the needed materials to build all this stuff, just to start attempting to mass produce walls - it's all very time consuming at an early phase.

If I had 8 hours today to dedicate to this, I'd probably be okay. Unlike a game like Minecraft, where you can hide what you're working on by digging into the ground, all our stuff is out in the open here.

A few other technical thoughts - it would be nice if the map would center on the player when you open it, but instead it opens to the same location it was in the last time you had it open. So if I walk a decent clip from where I was the last time I opened the map, I don't see myself on it any longer. Would also be nice if the map state were persistent between log-ins, but I'm sure that's something that's being worked on.

As I mentioned previously, it would be nice to have some materials recovered by destroying an existing structure. This wouldn't make it such a big deal to rearrange things or relocate objects.

Also, it would be nice if furnaces/stoves would just automatically produce whatever the product of the ingredients is, without having to apply a recipe. It would be better if it would just do nothing if the ingredients don't match any known recipe. I've lost track of how many times I took our my Iron Ore, put in some Copper Ore, and ran off (forgetting to tap the Apply Recipe button), and came back to find nothing had happened. I'm not sure I see what the advantage of having the button is, and it results in extra clicks by the player with no benefit.

Lurler

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2017, 11:47:22 pm »
I moved your post into a separate topic.

Also, since it is mostly gameplay related things I want to give my replies (rather than just adding it our bug tracker like with the bugs), so other players can read it too.

First of all, it looks and feels much better than the last time I played it! Definitely legitimately feels like the game has come a long way.
Thank you!
Although, the more we work on the game the more it seems there is still left to do :)

My first real big thought is that it takes a long time for the player to reach a stable point.
...
Yes, it is something I have also noticed myself. And something I want to address.
The simplest and most obvious solution would be to reduce the price of the walls to make building early base easier, but it has many negative consequences, including potential for griefing (such as placing walls everywhere on the map to block people's paths or next to some entrances, etc.).
We will consider some other ideas as well.
But if you have some specific solution in mind - please let us know!

And since I can't regain materials by disassembling things, in the early game I effectively need to have *at minimum* a furnace, campfire, bedroll, and workbench. Just trying to assemble walls and a door to protect these few things takes a lot more time than can be casually dedicated.
Well, I would consider the furnace to be the second stage of development, so it's really not necessary for the basic base.

And second critically important nuance - is that you usually don't need to protect your crafting stations. There is no reason for anyone to destroy them other than for griefing purposes.
So you could build a tiny hut with a few chests and a sleeping bag. Then surround that by a wall. Then build your crafting stations around it and THEN surround it by a second wall. So far this seems to me like the most reasonable approach given the current mechanics.

If I had 8 hours today to dedicate to this, I'd probably be okay. Unlike a game like Minecraft, where you can hide what you're working on by digging into the ground, all our stuff is out in the open here.
True. But at the same time unlike minecraft you can't see past the edges of the screen so you can't spot people's bases from far away. And given that we will be expanding the map even more the chance to find people's bases if they are hidden in some far away corner of the map will be even less. So I think it balances out pretty decently.
But we will obviously need to keep testing the game and seeing how players behave to better decide on different approaches regarding the matter above.

As I mentioned previously, it would be nice to have some materials recovered by destroying an existing structure. This wouldn't make it such a big deal to rearrange things or relocate objects.
Getting resources from destroyed entities is certainly coming. As for rearranging or relocating things - not any time soon, but we have some ideas in mind. At least allowing you to disassemble your constructions if they are inside the protected "house zone".

Also, it would be nice if furnaces/stoves would just automatically produce whatever the product of the ingredients is, without having to apply a recipe.
Alas, but it's not possible. Since the same resources could be used for different products. Say you wanted to craft clay bricks but then got bunch of ceramic pots or something because the game guessed the recipe incorrectly. Also, I think it is just a matter of habit, and will be perfectly fine once you get used to it.

Also, a few other issues like the map, etc., please see this topic: http://forums.atomictorch.com/index.php?topic=957.0

Tchey

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2017, 03:35:56 am »
I didn't play yet (Linux), but about the last part with furnace and recipe, what about ONLY apply recipe, and then the furnace auto-fill from your inventory ?

Lurler

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2017, 03:48:22 am »
I didn't play yet (Linux), but about the last part with furnace and recipe, what about ONLY apply recipe, and then the furnace auto-fill from your inventory ?
Sorry, but it goes against everything so far in the game. There's a small buffer for items in each autocrafter and it it takes items automatically it will be a problem.
All other crafting obviously takes items directly from your inventory. Just not autocrafters.

ai_enabled

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2017, 04:47:24 am »
Quote
A few other technical thoughts - it would be nice if the map would center on the player when you open it, but instead it opens to the same location it was in the last time you had it open.
That's because last time you manually moved the map. If you want to restore/keep auto-centering on your character, you need to press [X] button in this window.

MenschMaschine

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2017, 07:00:40 am »
If that x-button is a toggle, it's state could be made visible by turning it green (on) or red (off).
I did not see any change when i pressed it repetedtedtedly.
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ai_enabled

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2017, 12:41:49 am »
MenschMaschine, the latest update fixed this issue - the map is automatically centered on character when you open it. I don't really think we need to add any kind of visual indicator now.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 12:56:57 am by ai_enabled »

Ophidios

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2017, 08:10:17 am »
A few additional thoughts, having played a lot more:

I feel as if tree density could be increased. Having said that, we wouldn't want to make it more difficult for people to travel. Perhaps give the trees a smaller hitbox, and one that's round, so entities will sort of "roll" around trees when bumping into them? A vast quantity of wood is required to get anywhere in this game. I try to picture going out into a real forest to live - there's more than enough lumber in the immediate vicinity to build all the basic things you would need. Unless you're working on a megastructure, one of the most basic building blocks of equipment and shelter should be easier to come by. Obviously the rarer materials should still be that, but making wood difficult to obtain in quantity slows things down.

Sand/Clay: They're very hard to find in sufficient quantities. I know Lurler mentioned that nobody has really tried farming yet, but that's because you need a LOT of sand to do it, and I've barely found enough to make a small quantity of glass bottles. Obviously you don't want sand laying around everywhere, but on a beach/desert area it should be pretty much abundant. Glass containers and sand are pretty necessary to start making bigger/better things, but by having it be more available it doesn't really make higher-level gear more accessible, since those still need additional specialized ingredients. I don't think it would harm the balance much at all if it were easier to get sand and clay. They're pretty rare right now, as is.

Mob density: I actually don't like the decrease in mobs. There's no challenge to running around the world now, and even on the mountains it's very easy to kite 1 or 2 antlions/lizards away from where you want to mine, then go around and dig. Also, it took me a really long time to finish my bone armor, because the only mob that seems to drop leather now are the skunks, and unless you go to Lurler's house and break in (haha) it's very tricky to find skunks out and about.

MenschMaschine

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 02:47:14 pm »
1. Sand (and Stone) should be abundant in areas where those two resources naturally occur in the ground.
A good solution would be, instead of littering the beaches and mountains with spawns for those resources (which may block  creaturespawns),
to make the ground itself mineable (only for those two resources!) and keep the requirements for the stuff that needs those 2.

2. Creaturespawns: I think that more creatures will be a problem when there are more players running about.
Newbies will (intentionally even) aggreviate them and then run away possibly luring them to other players to make the creaures attack those players and loot their stuff,
because the creatures run after you for some time and are (in the case of the Sandcrawler) aggreviated within a big range.

Note: that all might change of course, when the maps get bigger (i would say they need to be at least 5 times bigger)

3. The woodsituation got much better now that most stuff is 50% cheaper, in my view, more so because now we can repair walls.
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Ophidios

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2017, 03:16:18 pm »
I suppose you're right. Now that I think about it, a more sensible solution than increasing mob density would simply be to increase the number of mobs who drop leather/bones.

MenschMaschine

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2017, 03:42:29 pm »
Hm, right! °grins° And adding some mobs which could provide both and reproduce like maaaaad, like... you know... Rabbids.
°stomps onto the ground° Oh, be quiet, Mr. Graham, i did not say Wererabbit! No one is stealing your intellectual property.
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Ophidios

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 08:54:53 am »
Economics of Firelogs:

After talking with MenschMaschine and doing some !!SCIENCE!!, I decided to take a look at firelogs, and determine whether they're economical or not. At first glance they seemed to be, but after I really thought about it, it turns out they're a huge waste.

The ingredients to make one are 5 wood, 3 coal, 10 fiber, and 1 paper. Fiber is an ingredient I won't really consider in this equation, because it's abundant as hell and you're swimming in it in no time. But for the raw ingredients needed to make a firelog (1 paper is 5 wood), for 10 wood and 3 coal you can smelt 16 ingots of metal.

A single firelog can only smelt 19 ingots of metal. This means your net yield for the effort needed to make the firelog (assuming you have bottles, access to water, and a Chemical Labratory) is 3 ingots. You can also yield 3 additional ingots by adding an additional 3 pieces of wood to the pile. It takes roughly 5 seconds of effort to gather 3 wood, versus the amount of time and resources necessary to make a firelog. It is not worth it. Especially when you add on the fact that you have to use coal as well, which is already a pretty limited resource.

Something to consider. If you could make a firelog using charcoal instead of coal, and maybe upped the yield a little (25 ingots?), this would seem like a much more equitable and economical balance.

MenschMaschine

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Re: CF test report by Ophidios
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2017, 09:25:46 am »
What he said...  8)

Seriously though, it is getting worse if you look at the the more social implications.
If many people (because firelogs -seem- at the first look a grat thing) start to make them,
the resources of the map will be hunted down even more, while those which are rare
(coal and sand. the latter you need for the bottle, which again you need for the paper)
do not allow for massproduction of firelogs.

That makes them a speciality item and kinda useless.
As it is now, sand is needed much more anyways for other things.
Farming plots as an example. But that's a different problem.

Regarding the resource situation i would say that the whole map has enough
resources to test everything nicely in a timely fashion for 2 maybe 3 people not more
if they all play at the same time.
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