AtomicTorch Studio Forums

CryoFall => Ideas and suggestions => Topic started by: Swiur_Yngwi on August 30, 2018, 12:18:29 AM

Title: Trading
Post by: Swiur_Yngwi on August 30, 2018, 12:18:29 AM
Do you like the sound of money flow and the "cha-ching" effect made by your cash register? Let the profit rule the world!

Trading

Well, almost no experiences on that field, because trading doesn;t exist in the game at the moment. And I mean buying and selling goods for coins. Because barter is doing quite fine.
As for the moment the biggest issue for other players is to travel to my trading station through the whole map and buy/sell nothing. Mostly because they donΓÇÖt know in advance what i want to buy or sell. They get that info while on place and that is too late (u dont bring your whole inventory of stuff for a trip in which u can die every three seconds and lose all). Therefore i suggest adding a new building ΓÇô trading info point ΓÇô in which u will be able to check buying/selling lists of all active offers and the name of the trader. To be build by the players itself. Then everyone will be able to find and compare the buying/selling offers and make a choice or even reservation.

The same with jobs. Like: need 200 coal. Time to do:24 hours. Payment: 20 steel ingots. Payment locked in advance in the machine. When another player chooses offer it will lock for him. When done: payment + LP bonus. When failed - LP substraction and offer is active again till cancelled by the "caller". Can be done the same way as trading + info points build by players itself.
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: EvilMammoth on September 03, 2018, 03:40:41 AM
 And here comes my view:

  Trading

a) Newbies and undeveloped players should be available to trade too. Not only high tier players, who ΓÇ£researchedΓÇ¥ commerce. For new player map may look too big, dangerous and unrevealed. So it can be a problem for him to run and find trading station of another developed player. A newcomer should be also available to set his trading table and sell some raw materials (stone, fiber, wood, farm production and other). So developed players can come and check if they need something (they always need raw materials) and buy it.
b) I strongly sure that copper coins should be removed out of trading system. It cost nothing and can be found in rad-towns. Therefore, as a seller ΓÇô I donΓÇÖt want to trade my goods for those copper coins. Because I can go and loot it myself in radtown. Or craft it at low cost out of cheap copper.
On another side ΓÇô gold coins have its value. Gold is hard to find, it is needed in high level craft so it is interesting to sell goods for gold.

So just remove copper coins and add 1-2 types of coins, made of gold + steel in different %.
Like :
- 1 gold coin (clean gold)
- 1 mixed 30% gold + 70% steel coin
- 1 mixed 10% gold + 45% iron + 45% copper coin

All types of coins should contain valuable gold. No any of those should be available easy to loot in radtowns. It should be possible to smelt coins back into gold, steel, iron, copper ingots with 10-20% material loss.
Any player, even newcomer, should be able to craft at least cheapest coins.

c) Players need to barter. For example: I want to sell 20 canisters of mineral oil, so I set price not just in coins, but also/instead I can set price in one of the raw materials and, may be, even simple resources - 2000 fibers, 3000 iron ore, 130 iron ingots, 30 berry jam bars, 5000 planks…

d) As one of the players noticed ΓÇô it will be nice to have some kind of list, where players can find united information: who sell what and where.

c) May be it will be interesting idea to think about safe zones for trading, so seller and buyer can come and be sure ΓÇô they will not be robbed. Guarded underground market, island or orbital trading ΓÇô can be a kind of solution.
Because on PVP servers raiders can wait near trading station for buyers and sellers.

d) PlayerΓÇÖs trading stations should be VERY hard to destroy even with explosives because seller lose everything inside. No one will set trading station in the middle of the PVP map and put good stuff inside, because first griffer will destroy it ΓÇ£just for lulzΓÇ¥

Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Swiur_Yngwi on September 03, 2018, 11:35:55 AM
Quote from: EvilMammoth on September 03, 2018, 03:40:41 AM
And here comes my view:
...

I agree with all what was written. Excellent ideas.
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Xargt on October 05, 2018, 09:18:31 AM
I'm a new player. What hooked me to try and play the game is the trading system that is introduced in CryoFall. I mean, I've played a lot of survival games and I've never seen such cool trading system that is introduced here. Therefore, I would like to experience and enjoy that scenario.

Unfortunately, after playing a couple of days, I got little disappointed, but I still got my patience. A few players already learned tier 4, if not 5. Commerce were set to tier 3. Yet, I feel like the trading system/station is ignored. I wonder why? I feel the reasons but I'm not sure. I see players looking for trades in chat since my first day on the game, but why until now, no one is using Commerce - the trading system?

Maaaaan, I just want the cool trading system to shine!

Players wanted to trade since day 1. We can't do commerce, so we do something else complicated just to trade.
In PvP server, in my opinion, this can be seriously abused, to the point that bad things will affect the community. Abused players will get frustrated and the abusers will just laugh at them, making the scenario even worse. I mean, we play game to have fun, right? Not to get frustrated. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about.
...

Enough of this dramatic story. I'm aware this is alpha stage. I'm just here sharing my opinion. Hopefully I can help a little bit.

After reading previous posts which is very helpful and interesting, I also have a suggestion. Please..

1.) Move the Commerce to at least Tier 2, first thing on the left.
2.) Change the required resources that is possible for tier 2.
3.) Game designers will decide and set the prices. No need for players to make the prices.
*New players are clueless on how rare or how difficult to get these resources compare to other resources anyway. Forum is always open for suggestions of increase/decrease in prices.
4.) Make extra icons on the map showing what the player is selling and buying.
5.) Make an extra icon on the map showing how dangerous to trade there. If a customer gets killed by another player in after a few minutes, the icon will turn red. This is continuous as more customers were getting killed by another player, not by monsters or by hunger and such, in a period of time, thus turning extra red, otherwise, green. (Something like that)
6.) Make the trading machines to be invulnerable, except for the owner, unless the "Land Claim"  is destroyed.


...
Thank you.




Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Xargt on October 05, 2018, 09:19:49 AM
These trading machines can't be destroyed unless the "Land Claim" is destroyed, right?
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Swiur_Yngwi on October 05, 2018, 10:04:42 AM
Quote from: Xargt on October 05, 2018, 09:19:49 AM
These trading machines can't be destroyed unless the "Land Claim" is destroyed, right?

Unfortuantelly it doesn't work like that. TS has its own structure points and yet can be destroyed. The only positive feedback is that all inside will be destroyed too... so agresor will get nothing. That is why most players use their TS not for trading, but for storaging the most preciuos and valuable goods in it (like bombs, ammo, weapon).

Money in this game so far mean nothing. Barter is the only reasonable trading system.
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Djekke on October 05, 2018, 10:07:24 AM
After reading you post, I have another good idea that give you all that you ask here.
Add NPC trading stations, that can not be destroyed, with automatic price adjustments (if the item is often bought ΓÇö the price is up, often sell ΓÇö the price is down) Add 2 of them on the map with marks (May be later move this marks do discover from datalogs from rad-towns). It would be a nice pvp-zone with pros and cons. (Ofc no landclaims allowed near this)
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Xargt on October 05, 2018, 10:12:09 AM
@Swiur_Yngwi
Noooooooo.... Money should be meaningful in this game! LuL :P

@Djekke
That idea is okay. Although I really would like to see a city filled with people's own hard built and well designed market places. Won't we all..?
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Xargt on October 05, 2018, 10:15:36 AM
Then I would also like to suggest that these trading machines should be invulnerable unless the "Land Claim" is destroyed. I'll update my previous suggestion list.
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Xargt on October 05, 2018, 11:29:28 AM
I'm asking too much.

Anyway, if the game comes out on steam with price increased, I'll be glad to spend for this.

The game itself is already good, but with a cool trading system like this feels unique.

I prefer to see this whole idea of trade first than others like vehicles and such.
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Dolingen on October 06, 2018, 10:20:52 PM
I wish to second or vote for Djekke's idea about trading stations being run by NPC's that cannot be destroyed, or they can be shot at and the player will be shot back by the NPC and banned from said trading station for like 24/48 hours.
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Jpeasy on October 07, 2018, 07:39:52 AM
Even a simple marketplace people can access from within their bases to trade with others would be nice
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Swiur_Yngwi on October 23, 2018, 09:06:41 AM
Maybe I should wait with this post until wipe, but I already wrote it on discord, so why not here too....

I have been testing trading possibilities and abilities for about two weeks on US server. And my conclusion is: it is possible, it is doable, it is profitable.
But under one condition: DON'T BE GREEDY

Set fair prices (u earn, but not tons of coins on one crapy item), allow other players to earn money (trading stations have buying option - use it). But again - DON'T BE CHEAP.

Forget about SHINY coins. No one will have them. And penny coins drop from rad towns.

Reinvest your income - I put about 30% of my daily income back into machines to buy resources (and adjust prices when needed). Simple, raw, easy to get resources - wood, fibre, pyrite. And more demanding - sulfur, natural rubber. Exclusive ones - mechanical parts, rubber, precious stones. It doesn't mean i always buy all I want - but at least i call my demand.

And finally - have a huge variety of products to buy/sell. I sold almost everything (except bombs and food). Lithium, plastic, stone, iron, steel, copper, bandage, cigars, vodka, cement, electronic components, all kinds of armour, all kinds of weapons and ammo. Medicine, medicine chemicals, chemicals, solvent. Even products on demand for certain customers/players. Sometimes with negotiable prices.
For all of that I am using 14 trading stations - 6 with buying mode and 8 with selling mode.

Results? When properly restocked, daily income was like 4k coins. Average - 2,5 to 3 k coins. Maximum daily - almost 6k coins.

I assume that my total trading income up to day is like 40-45k penny coins. I have reinvested about 30% of that sum - that means about 12-15 k coins in circulation.
Total profit: +30k penny coins and lots of raw resources (which i spent on making items to restock the markets). I still have to mine, chop and gather some resources, craft semiproducts and do plenty other things, but it is worth of it! My ingame time is now priced :)

All above brings me to another issue....to be found in separate topic :) :P
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Warbot on October 23, 2018, 01:39:58 PM
Why the hell are people like "all coins must contain gold" and "coins are worthless" or "there should be a loss when turning coins back into metal"?!

That's all so wrong...
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Lurler on October 23, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
Swiur_Yngwi, thank you for sharing that!

Can you also write a bit more about specifics of your approach?

For example:
- How often do you need to restock? How many times a day?
- Is the storage capacity enough?
- In trading stations that buy items - how do you control how many of each items you want to buy?
- How many coins do you typically keep in each trading stations?
- How do you decide how much of each type of goods to stock?
- Do you advertise your services in any way?
- Do you have regulars? If so - do they leave any feedback to you about your trading stations? Have you made any changes based on their feedback?
- Would you change anything in the current trading system?

In one of the future versions we are also going to introduce detailed statistics to make keeping track of your sales easier. Do you have any requests for this or additional features?

Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Swiur_Yngwi on October 26, 2018, 08:57:10 AM
At the start I want to emphsise: I was focusing most of my ingame time on trading mechanics. It was my main goal in this server run to test it.
Quote from: Lurler on October 23, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
- How often do you need to restock? How many times a day?
I tried to restock the machines twice a day. Like every 12 hours (that also depended on my free time i could spent in the game). Normally it took me two runs for each market: once to see what is missing and second - to deliver goods.
Quote from: Lurler on October 23, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
- Is the storage capacity enough?
Well, hard to say. On one hand, it could be bigger -> more goods will be stocked. On the other hand, when TS is destroyed, more goods will be lost too. Sometimes i wished to have more display options (in big machine u can set up up to 6 products). So, yes, 4 slots in storage and 2 in display could be useful.
Quote from: Lurler on October 23, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
- In trading stations that buy items - how do you control how many of each items you want to buy?
In the current system it is mostly impossible. Mostly because of its simplicity. The only way I see to control my demand is to set every single needed product/resource in separate machine. And control it by amount of coins in each one.
Quote from: Lurler on October 23, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
- How many coins do you typically keep in each trading stations?
Like mentioned before, I tried to leave about 30% of my income in the buying machines. So, when after 12 hours I grabbed like 1500 coins, 500 was reinvested. It could change slightly depending  on my ongoing needs and prices set for buying. Now I don't keep more than a 1000 coins in every buying machine.
Quote from: Lurler on October 23, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
- How do you decide how much of each type of goods to stock?
To use storage space to maximum, stack was my main number. But I had always keep in mind that TS can be destroyed and then I lose what is inside. So all resources were in one stack maximum. Usable items, like bandages, cigars, vodka - up to 5 stacks. Ammo - up to 4 stacks maximum. For unitary items, like hazmat suit, armour, weapon - up to 3 units. For low tier unitary units, like leather armour - up to 5 units each type. Very important! U need to leave one slot in storage free - for coins.
Quote from: Lurler on October 23, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
- Do you advertise your services in any way?
Yes, I did. I wanted all players to know about my market. So, almost every time i restocked the machines I gave info about that on global chat with coordinates to the place. And it worked pretty good. But of course it would be nice to have a possiblity for more "agressive" marketing, like banners, TV commercials (when eletricity is introduced). And more building options in area of trading would be good too. Like - "welcome" entries, signboards, etc...
Quote from: Lurler on October 23, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
- Do you have regulars? If so - do they leave any feedback to you about your trading stations? Have you made any changes based on their feedback?
U mean returning customers? Yes, I did. And that was the most satisfactory part of that test. People were asking for restocking certain products, or giving me the info what is missing at the moment. And I did adjusted prices of few products based on their feedback. After few days of running the market i noticed that when a new player was asking on chat where to find lithium or plastic, sometimes he got answered like: market, coords, cheap. So, the info was spreading around on itself. And in some way I got respected (I am not boasting myself here now, just giving my expressions). Funny moments: One called me "the king of trade" and one hand love to me  ;D

Quote from: Lurler on October 23, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
- Would you change anything in the current trading system?
Partially this question is already answered above. Little more storage slots. Little more display slots. More paying options - not only goods for coins, but also goods for goods. Maybe a dedicated landclaim that will make TS area PVE (but still with raiding option). I didn't liked the fact, that when two TS were buildednext to each other, u could freely move between them. That knowledge "costed" me two trading stations. To make them unaccesible from behind to the third party, u need to separate them with wall. And of course statistics.

Quote from: Lurler on October 23, 2018, 11:26:00 PM
In one of the future versions we are also going to introduce detailed statistics to make keeping track of your sales easier. Do you have any requests for this or additional features?
Well, I have a master degree in economics and work all my life in trading, so.... some basic statistics could be very helpful. Now i used my memory and a sheet of paper for that. And had no competition - did not have to worry about their prices and stock. More sophisticated solutions will mostly depend on how trading will develop in the future. Options are limitless.
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Lurler on October 28, 2018, 09:48:45 PM
Thank you very much for taking time to write such a detailed answer. This is really valuable to us, as there aren't many people who utilize the trading system to its fullest yet. So, I really appreciate your help!

Based on your feedback we are making some changes to the trading station and economic approach already. Not everything will be ready in the next update though.
Another thing I noticed is that neither you, nor other players who used trading station didn't use shiny coins, only penny coins. But I wonder why? You could probably even setup an exchange station where you can exchange between different coins at an exchange rate you feel comfortable with.
But either way - in the next update we are changing the recipes for both coins slightly to help and make them both more useful in trading.

Are you planning to run a large store again in the next update?
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: prodrunk on December 14, 2018, 07:38:13 AM
the problem with the trading is certain demands for goods.

first the good things:
The trading system is unique and good. Keep it mostly that way, maybe add some upgrades possible to the trading machine like the land claim tier.
better machine is more room, more hp, more slots

possible to click the trading icon on the map which gives you a message which can be set on the trading machine like a list of cost of items and such.

I am now setting up a trading system so players actually can get the stuff they need to mine at my trading station, so they dont have to go back, that helps but not ideal.

I have made several pages full of data with prices and everything.
depending on the price I give for resources, thats how much a product would cost
this means if I lower my prices then the price of the end product is lower aswell.

so base prices I ask
5 ore = 1 coin
10, potassium or sulfur or pyrite all 1 coin
10 natural rubber = 1 coin
12 logs = 1 coin
20 sand = 1 coin
8 coal = 1 coin
3 leaves = 1 coin
1 mineral oil = 5 coins
1 lithium salts = 3 coins

here are the prices at what I should sell to break even
handgun = 141 coins
military shotgun = 279 coins
submachine gun = 340 coins
heavy machinegun = 715 coins

standard 10m ammo = 13,35 coins
10m AP ammo = 15,65 coins
10m HP Ammo = 13,5 coins
12 gauge slug ammo = 24,4 coins
.300 AP ammo = 54,75 coins
.300 incendiary ammo = 58,25 coins

iron mace = 23,35 coins
steel pickaxe = 36,35 coins
steel axe = 36,35 coins

10 mining charges = 33,5 coins

military armor 1 part = 73,5 coins
assault armor 1 part = 207,4 coins
hazmat suit = 401,5 coins
APART suit = 608,4 coins

night vsision = 242 coins

large power bank = 451,5 coins
standard power bank = 248,25 coins

this at first glance looks okay, the hazmat and apart are expensive, but thats my choice coss of putting mineral oil and lithium salts that price.

for the armor the prices are fantastic, the guns on the other hand are slightly too expensive, this mainly due to the requirments of rubber

to make rubber it costs 5 natural rubber and 20 sulfur
to make 1 mechanical component it costs 15 steel, 20 rubber and 10 flux

no matter what i try in changing prices its the amount of sulfur for making rubber and the amount of rubber for making mechanical parts which offsets the balance.
all the rest is fine.

My suggestion is to lower the demands of sulfur and rubber for making mechanical parts.  this would improve trading as now i get pyrite plenty and other resources to but always in demand for sulfur.  Which everyone else needs to.

I suggest:
1 rubber = 5 natural rubber, 12 sulfur
5 mechanical parts = 15 steel, 12 natural rubber, 10 flux
bumb up the amount of ammo you get by double for same amount of resources

or
you could bump up the amount of sulfur mined by 60%

I have not added energy weapons since I have not researched those yet.

Title: Re: Trading
Post by: BobTheFish on September 07, 2019, 05:28:07 PM
Suggestion: Add a trading quest. This could be general like "Buy something from a trading station" or specific like "Set up a market stocked with coffee beans."

This is just a gut feeling but I think people seem to see only two ways to get resources and technologies: grinding or raiding. In reality there is a third option: trading. Players are trying to grind to unlock high tier technologies when they could be instead specialising and trading. Adding trading as a quest should make sure new players are aware of it. Similarly players are walking across the large map to grind for resources; it would make more sense for players local to that region to do the grinding and put the excess resources up for sale. I also think it would be good to have a number of indestructible market hubs around the map (in middle-ish areas) which players can use to do their trading. Even better could be if these hubs worked like the land claim (all have the same items in them). That way boreal players could visit the northern hub and tropical players could visit the southern hub, but they would still be able to trade with each other (saves walking). You could extend this even further by making all player-built trading stations work from a central trading system so everyone can trade from within the safety of their own base, but this is possibly not in keeping with the dangerous tone of the game.

Three things in the trading system that could be improved are:
1) Accessibility: It's only available at high-tier. It would be great to have a low-tier market structure. I suggest that it would be set up to trade item-for-item rather than coins, so that coin-based commerce is still a high-tier objective.
2) Usability: Currently the only way to know what a market stall is trading is to walk all the way to it. If there was a way to view market information, for example from the map interface, then you could plan your trading journeys in advance so it would be easier.
3) Motivation: There could be more need for trading, right now a clan can get everything they need easily by themselves. If regions had more unique resources and players were encouraged to do trading, then they might be more likely to sell their excess resources and have trading stations requesting resources that are far from their base. For example coffee beans should only be available in the tropics, and oil berries are only available in the boreal region, so it would make sense to trade.
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Lurler on September 08, 2019, 09:14:44 PM
While I agree on a premise - not everyone wants to trade and forcing people through quests isn't really a good idea.
Quests are designed to explain things that everyone would be doing during a normal play-through, while trading is completely optional, hence it is not part of a quest.

In regards to map preview of the trading station - it is definitely planned for the future, but currently we must finish a few other things first.

Well, anyway, we definitely want to expand on trading as it's an important part of the game! :)
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: BobTheFish on September 09, 2019, 03:11:10 AM
Thank you for your reply! I had assumed trading was part of your original vision for a normal play-through.

Great to hear you have plans to expand on trading. There are plenty of new things each patch without it, so there's no rush of course, especially if trading is not something everybody is into.
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Ghullez on May 08, 2020, 06:54:20 PM
What about adding ability to link boxes to trading machines? Freezers, or fridges for trading food, large boxes to store raw materials.  This will cut the need to make new trading machines or their types, like refrigerated trading boxes, liquid trading boxes etc. and make them more modular. For example:

I place the trading machines outside of my base, in a place with walls, doors set to public, so anybody can get in and trade.

Inside the safety of my base i have set up 2 fridges and 2 large storage boxes for trading, fridges filled with sandwiches, and storage boxes for raw materials ( As payment )

I link together the fridges and boxes with the trading machines. Fridges are set to Export, as i am intended to sell the stuff from them, storage boxes are set to import as i want them to collect payment ) Export/Import could be mixed, for example i sell 1 Iron ore for 2 Sands, and i buy 1 Iron ore for 1 Sand, without adding additional boxes.

After some time i decided to sell my gasoline as i have too much of it in stock. I place the barrel in the reach of trading machine. Customer would need to have his own container for the liquid in order to fill it up, buy a canister for additional price, or bring his own empty canisters for replacement.

The trade machines should have rather big trading distances, so people could build nice markets, and make them look nice, instead of box outside the base.
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: ai_enabled on May 09, 2020, 01:43:57 PM
@Ghullez, thank you for your ideas and suggestions. The idea of linking the trading terminal with a crate or fridge on the base is the one we're already thinking about for some time and added it in the roadmap here https://trello.com/c/v8vvEbYI/78-reworked-trading-system Your idea is more detailed than we thought with several inputs/outputs (import/export containers as I understood).
The ability to buy/sell liquids is requested quite often so with this new system we can also consider implementing it as you've proposed.

Regards!
Title: Re: Trading
Post by: Salvick on May 11, 2020, 08:47:22 PM
Hi guys, great ideas here and it is nice to see what is being planned to add it to the game soon.

I was just thinking about making the trading post visible on map as an option, so if someone choose to keep the trading post hidden from the map and arrange his trades privately we could provide the map coordinates or such like that instead.

I came with this idea basically because I was experimenting with some structures in the map editor and added a bunch of trading posts that ended up being a bit annoying in the map but I'm not sure if anyone else would like this idea.

There goes my two cents. Regards everyone!