AtomicTorch Studio Forums

CryoFall => Ideas and suggestions => Topic started by: Karsthans on April 11, 2021, 12:21:34 pm

Title: Gems
Post by: Karsthans on April 11, 2021, 12:21:34 pm

I was sure had posted about this before but since can´t find post will post again, if did post before apologies, anyway, I am at finding 0 gems in experimental, 3 gems in Europe 1 and previews servers had anywhere from 1 to 5 or so total, after playing for months at a time, now would like to suggest system like Trove game has, every x number of attempts get a 100% chance at rare loot, here for example gem, this number can be adjusted, in Trove is like 100 and here could be 1000 or even 10000, would avoid the insanely unfair of a completely random generator number that, for me at least, keeps kicking me in the family jewels every single time, note I know trade is alternative, however, I do not care for trading and shouldn't be only an unfair random generator system or a random price in player trade system as alternatives, in my opinion,

Title: Re: Gems
Post by: ai_enabled on April 11, 2021, 01:30:51 pm

we've addressed the problem with gems last summer as I've explained in this technical topic basically, the server will absolutely guarantee a gem every 2000 mined minerals, 1000 mined minerals in average are required (follow the linked topic for more details).

On a high rates server like the experimental one the chance should be even higher. If you have not found even a single gem by now there is probably a bug so we need to check it. Could you ask other players on the experimental server about their gem drop rate please?
Title: Re: Gems
Post by: D. on April 12, 2021, 12:46:29 am
I haven't found any gems either in my time on the experimental server...
Title: Re: Gems
Post by: ai_enabled on April 12, 2021, 02:52:47 am
Thanks for reporting!

I've checked the code with the debugger to see what may be wrong.
Apparently, everything works as intended. If you can find gold then you can also find gems, it just takes way more minerals to mine.
Perhaps with x2 rates most players don't need to farm minerals that much?
By design, x2 (or any higher rates) rates don't increase the chance of getting an item but increases its amount.

I realize that you have likely mined more than 2000 minerals so you should have obtained at least two gems by now (dropped together). Perhaps you have missed them? Or they dropped on the ground due to lack of space in inventory? (in that case, a notification is displayed)

There were no changes regarding this system in A30 Update so I'm very surprised regarding the reports. Looking for more players' feedback!

Title: Re: Gems
Post by: gaara on April 12, 2021, 02:56:35 am
i found gem right after 15 level skill.. and they drops in pairs
Title: Re: Gems
Post by: Karsthans on April 12, 2021, 06:46:19 am

I would guess system is every 2000 mining done server wide and not individual player, so like someone said can get first try at level 15 mining or mine all week and get none, if someone else is hitting the mark, but speculation apart, I just mined over 1000 nodes, sand, clay, copper, iron, sulfur, coal, stone and saltpeter, funny name that last one, no gem, experimental server a30, and I will not push for 2000, note some one else mining to test at same time on same server, got gems once, this again points to a server wide system and so its completely random and I was right to give up on gem related achievement as with my odds on random chance, its just not going to happen.
Title: Re: Gems
Post by: ai_enabled on April 12, 2021, 06:59:06 am
@Karsthans, the system is keeping track per player and we've verified it long ago and I've also performed several checks today. The full source code for this system is in this file

It works exactly the same way for gold though with a much higher chance (1/50 instead of 1/1000).
Also, the system stores the number of attempts made permanently so server reboots don't affect the roll.

We've asked several other players from A30 experimental and apparently, most of them were able to obtain at least a pair of gems, and most of them
expressed they just don't need to mine that many minerals on the experimental server thanks to x2 rates and many meteorite world events providing plenty of ore concentrates—but it indeed causes a shortage of gems.

There was no such problem with the previous experimental versions (and release version servers) as there were normal x1 servers while this time the server has x2 rates on items. The resource acquisition is much faster so you don't need to mine as many minerals—and so it appears the gems are much rarer than even before.

I think the better solution for this case would be to apply x2 rates in a different way—instead of providing a pair of gems instead of a single gem, just make a chance 1/500 instead of 1/1000. However, I don't see any technical opportunity to implement such a change yet (considering how the drop rates and the roll system are currently implemented). Will see what we can do. Meanwhile, I can certainly tell you that A30 release version with x1 rates will not suffer from this issue and gems drop rate will remain consistent to what it was in A29 and several earlier versions (since we've implemented the new roll system that I've elaborated about at the link in my first reply here).

Title: Re: Gems
Post by: ai_enabled on April 12, 2021, 07:18:27 am
Some further info:

Q: Is this roll algorithm per player or server-wide for all players?
A: It is per player. Actually, it is per resource type per player. This way the system will ensure that, for example, gemstones are dropping for each player with 1/1000 chance on average when mining any mineral (of any type), and each player will not need to mine more than 2000 minerals in the worst case to obtain a gem.

Q: Does it work with drones?
A: Yes! Just keep in mind that you need to have Prospecting skill at least at level 15 in order to be able to find any gemstones. Upon reaching level 15, the system will ensure that you can obtain a gemstone in a reasonable time as described above. Operating several Tier 4 drones is the best way to mine minerals in a large number quickly.
Title: Re: Gems
Post by: Karsthans on April 12, 2021, 09:10:23 am

I don't want to sound like a tool and keep saying the same thing but, I mined 1000+ in a row today, single log in and without stopping, only to unload inventory then back, this after playing for almost a month before that and mining many times during that time and no gem. I know might have come up and drop it, very unlikely but possible but this is just not normal and I had this issue in every single server I played on, probably around five or so and for months at a time, other server I got some gems but very few, example Europe 1 a29 came across 3 gems total on almost three months, so its very odd and could just be random generator is kicking in only at around 2000 every single time, still even so would be stretching math, since probably mined that many times that. I also like to note that this is only issue on my side, all other players I talked to about it, all report normal drop rates on gems witch makes it even stranger.
Title: Re: Gems
Post by: ai_enabled on April 12, 2021, 11:14:42 am
@Karsthans, I totally understand your frustration. This was the kind of feedback that motivated me to perform simulations back in summer 2020, research, and implement a proper solution, write the topic on forums explaining everything, and prove the solution with another indie programmer. Back then it was a widespread issue and simulations clearly demonstrated why it happened, as well as why the solution is valid.

Regarding your case, I can only say that it seems really bad luck and some gems lost on the ground due to lack of space in the inventory. Currently, there is simply no way to obtain no gems after playing dozens of hours and actively mining minerals.

could just be random generator is kicking in only at around 2000 every single time
— that's technically not probable. Your chance is rising linearly with each failed attempt. There is no simple "if" condition (like "if it's 2000th attempt, provide an item now")—there is a formula that raises your chance with each failed attempt. By reaching 2000 failed attempts the chance to get a gemstone is simply approaching 100%, but it's very close to it on the 1900th attempt already. The formula was proven by two separate simulations written by two different programmers. This formula ensures linear distribution as well as guaranteed drop in the worst case. It was carefully transferred into the game code. Since then (late summer 2020) we've practically stopped receiving feedback from unhappy players that were unable to obtain gems in a reasonable time.

I'm not dismissing your feedback and will gladly hear more from players as this is the only way to determine obscure issues. However, technically-wise, I'm confident there is nothing to cause an issue with the gemstones drop now. We've already done the best we can to ensure that it works perfectly. The low drop rate of gems just makes things harder to measure in practice so it may appear like things are not working right. But the very same roll algorithm is applied to gold nuggets that has a higher chance—if you consistently obtain gold nuggets from regular minerals in 50 attempts average and no more than 100 attempts, then things are working as designed! (the only exceptions are sand and clay as these are too easy to mine so they have a different chance—to obtain gold nuggets 100 attempts required in average, no more than 200 attempts)

Title: Re: Gems
Post by: D. on April 13, 2021, 01:40:01 am
i got a gem earlier today... sapphire