AtomicTorch Studio Forums

VoidExpanse => Game discussion => Topic started by: Lurler on December 24, 2014, 02:15:45 AM

Poll
Question: Is VoidExpanse ready for "gold" release?
Option 1: Yes votes: 6
Option 2: No votes: 5
Option 3: Other (comment) votes: 4
Title: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Lurler on December 24, 2014, 02:15:45 AM
Hello everyone.

There is a very important question we would like to ask you.

Seeing that many people in other communities feel betrayed by the developers when they (developers) "release" their game or move them out of early access to "gold", we felt it is something worth discussing with you first.

One recent example that I came across is this (http://i.imgur.com/uDsDJte.jpg) and I really don't want for anyone to feel that way. Which is why we discussed that point inside our team and decided to ask you directly.

For VoidExpanse we were considering both options: releasing it as a finished product or to early access, but in the end we feel that the game is ready. So, if you feel the same way we would like to release it on Steam early next year as a "gold copy", i.e. a finished product.

Does that mean we will stop developing it? We REALLY hope not! There are still a lot of features we planned to implement from the very beginning of this undertaking. It includes, for example upgrades and crafting, among other things, so there is really a lot more we can do with the game. If people on Steam, and the press can support us enough it would enable us to fund further development, which is what we ultimately want.

So, the bottom line:

Do you feel that VoidExpanse is ready to be released as a finished product ("gold copy") to Steam?

If not - what do we have to do to make it ready?

Note: There are a few things we will do before the release, naturally:
* Fix English (currently working on it).
* Fix all remaining bugs (currently working on it).
* Finish Russian translation (currently working on it).
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: FlessenGreendart on December 24, 2014, 04:07:50 AM
I think that's a yes from me. While there's still a lot that can be added to the game, and a few things I'd like to see (particularly crafing and debris looting), it is ultimately in a state where you can get a good few hours logged in to it before even getting to the Xengatarn space, and it plays really well and fairly stably (any ways that it doesn't, you guys are already working on fixing). You won't see any response like that guys from me.
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Excalibur on December 24, 2014, 05:17:57 AM
I think the game is ready. Additional features can be added later, such as crafting and so. Fixing all remaining bugs is a must. Maybe Early Access for a month or two, then release the full version. Given the full feature set, and all the gameplay you can currently get out of it, I'd say applying a $19.99 price tag would probably be reasonable. Not sure what kind of price tag you guys are considering. That's my feelings anyway. :)
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: kyokei on December 24, 2014, 05:51:55 AM
I think I need to split this response in 2 parts.

1) Looking at Single Player I can say that yes, this game is ready to be released as "Gold" although I would still suggest running as Early Access for 1-3 months MAX to get more feedback. You've had feedback from the forums on the story line, etc but when you release the game in Early Access then you will get just a bit more feedback. I also think that 1-3 months of Early Access is very acceptable, even more so with the game in this state and nearly done Single Player wise.
And then once it's released you can think of expanding Single Player with crafting, more quests/stories. One thing I miss from Single Player is more life in the game. More NPC's that are actually randomly doing things. Some police ships fighting some Pirates. Random ships asking for help or just hailing you, more radio chatter etc...

2) Looking at Multiplayer I can say no. The game is not ready when it comes to Multiplayer. Taken from the site:
"Multiplayer
Singleplayer is not enough for you? Multiplayer in VoidExpanse features fully persistent worlds, turning each server into a mini MMO. Create your own galaxy to discover with custom mods installed, or play on any existing servers that other people have created. Ally with other players or destroy them! "
When I look at Multiplayer now it does not feel like a mini MMO.
In my opinion to make the game Multiplayer ready you need some kind of grouping mechanism. When you talk about Multiplayer and certainly MMO then people think of playing together with friends.
So for this you need:
- Group system
- Quest sharing objectives (like kill pirate X and when he is dead the kill is rewarded to the whole group)
Once this is there then the game is ready to be released as Gold. After that you can work on stuff like bosses, instance like sectors (by this I mean quest = kill boss X, warp to sector X, clear through mobs to get to boss). And then you can think of Player guilds, crafting, etc as crazy as you want to make it.

I still remember the things we talked about while being on the server Lurler so I see where this is coming from. I would fix the bugs, polish the languages, implement Grouping + shared XP/kills and then fling this game on Early Access. Once it's there polish it a bit more and after 1-3 months release it as a full game.
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Zer0Glitch on December 24, 2014, 07:42:26 AM
I want to +1 kyokei's post. He/she did a great job of going over some of the issues I also feel might need to be addressed first.

But to answer the question, is it ready for Gold?

I think by today's standard of games, yes. You could release it now, patch it a few times and move on to a new project and most people would be very happy with their purchase.

However I think a few more months (no more than 3) of improving the gameplay, the atmosphere, and adding more content might go a long ways towards putting this game on the map. Along with releasing more detailed tutorials and documentation on modding (more on that later).

My biggest "issue" with the game is a very subjective feeling I get while playing. And please understand, all of this is said with love.

The universe feels lifeless. I don't mean there aren't enough NPC's to shoot, because Lord knows there are PLENTY of them in every sector. But that too is part of the problem. Every sector I go into, I know I'm going to have a 80/20 ratio of Pirates to NPCs. The NPCs do absolutely nothing it seems. The few skirmishes I do see end up ending it the NPC being overrun by Pirates. It all feels very static. Like every system is a new arena for to shoot pirates in. There's no story, no struggle, no, well, life. I suppose the universe doesn't feel real, or the universe is inhabited by far more pirates than not.

Suggestions on how to fix this:
1) Have the amount of pirates in a system vary based on proximity to factions. For example, while flying in the capital system I would expect to find very few pirates. In fact I would only expect pirates if they were trying to take out a NPC Hauler, Bounty Hunting, or sending a huge force in to attack the base (which, btw destructible bases would be awesome. Also deployable bases too :) ). Between faction sectors I would expect the pirate count to increase, especially when getting closer to Pirate faction territory. This, of course, could be a very fluid thing based on any number of factors, but you get the idea.

2) More dynamic NPC interaction. Being able to hire NPCs for various jobs would be great. Being able to talk to or scan an NPC ship to see where it's headed and where it's coming from and be able to follow it to it's destination between sectors. Random events that you get "called in for help", such as random pirate attack on convoy, save crew from broken down ship, get lured into a trap or set a trap up. The mission board is nice, but "stumbling" across such events, I think, would help add to the living universe immersion.

3) Better trading UI/Info. As it stands right now trading is difficult and not very fun. I don't mind the difficult part, in fact I think it should be a challenge. But not being able to see prices (even stale) or get trade data other than through a broker seems a little restrictive. I've never gotten the impression that the trading aspect of this game was anything other than static, unless modified by the trade broker for trade routes. What I would enjoy is the ability to take an item and see what it's highest/lowest buy and sell price is for it and on which system. Also being able to affect the economy in a system would be nice too. Like being able to buy a lot of a particular item to cause it's price to skyrocket. Or tell a lot of one item to a base to cause it's price to bottom out.

4) More modding documentation/tutorials/guides/examples. As a developer, I was able to see just how far you've opened up the modding capabilities with the API. It's very impressive. However I think to really give this game a boost, adding more documentation for the modding would help give this game some real momentum. Showing how easy it is to create a simple mod for all the basic things someone might want to do (add a ship, add/modify weapon, at a system, etc.), I believe, would increase its chances of being recognized in the long run. All it takes is one Counter-Strike mod to change everything (dating myself with that reference).

Having said ALL of that, I love this game! Truly, I've been waiting for this type of game since Stellar Frontier (look it up :P). I have had an absolute blast playing it, and honestly if you guys stopped developing it today, I would still feel like I got more than my monies worth. I have no regrets purchasing this game and would do so again in a heartbeat. But because I am so enamored with this game, I want to be sure it's as good as it possibly can be. Thus, all the above.

Best of luck guys! :)

Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Hammish on December 24, 2014, 08:40:22 AM
I can agree with a lot of the above, but I still voted yes and feel justified in doing so.  In terms of technical stability and content I really feel that you guys are at a release state once the final round of bugs is quashed.

The one bit I would add is the vast majority of games that end up with bad press coming back from an EA program, like the link mentioned above, is typically due to a wealth of factors but one really stands out: lack of developer transparency.  In this department I really think AT stands out from a lot of others, so I would say if you're going to go for full release... keep that up.  Be very, very clear with people what is already included with the game, what you intend/promise to add in the near future, and what you'd eventually like to get around to adding.  Cleaning up the server software/options, as a recent example, is something I'd put under 'intended', whereas stuff like crafting would probably go under 'hope to'.  Point is, if you sit down and define all that for people looking to pick up the software, they're far less likely to end up grumpy. :)

Heck, even setting some stretch goals despite not being crowdfunded might be a cool thing.  Ultimately everyone understands (or should) that features take work, and work will only continue if there is compensation for the developers.  Might be good for people to know what you consider to be good milestones.
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Victus on December 24, 2014, 09:50:36 AM
Personally I've greatly enjoyed this game so far but it does have some quirks that need to be worked out before any kind of major release. +1 to Zer0Glitch and kyokei's posts, they touched on a lot of what I feel as well.

You probably could release it within the next year but not too soon and not without better multiplayer and modding API. Modding can make or break games nowadays, look at how Starbound went when the devs didn't release any new content for a year, the community took over and made the content they wanted because the game was easy to mod. While I'm not saying you should do with VoidExpanse what they did with their game (it angered a LOT of people) but having a game that is easy to mod means that years after you complete the game it may still have a dedicated community of modders adding more content and keeping it relevant to the users.
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Lurler on December 25, 2014, 12:44:23 AM
Thank you everyone for taking time to write your opinions. We really appreciate that.
We will take your comments in consideration before making any decisions! And it gives us a better idea where you/we stand.

Now, there are a few points in particular I would like to address.

Quote from: kyokei on December 24, 2014, 05:51:55 AM
The game is not ready when it comes to Multiplayer.
...
So for this you need:
- Group system
- Quest sharing objectives (like kill pirate X and when he is dead the kill is rewarded to the whole group)
I have to agree with you here.
We really need to make multiplayer experience more meaningful. We will make all efforts to make it happen as soon as possible.

Zer0Glitch, about your suggestions. I will be completely honest here. Even though all of them sounds great they are simply beyond the scope of what we can do now. It is simply not possible with the things as they are now. We would need at least 2 new people (developer and artist) on the team and MASSIVE funding to make this happen. Especially the first two points, as that would require major changes to the core game. So, I have to say - no. It is, unfortunately, not possible, not unless we have massive sales on Steam that would enable us to continue working on the game for another half a year.

Quote from: Victus on December 24, 2014, 09:50:36 AM
You probably could release it within the next year but not too soon and not without better multiplayer and modding API.
Frankly, I don't see what else can be done in terms of modding. The game is completely and totally geared towards it from the very beginning making it extremely easy and without any limitations. You can change literally anything. And all resources are completely open. There is also a wiki (http://wiki.atomictorch.com/Main_Page) with detailed API instructions and examples. So, there is really nothing more we can do in terms of modding that isn't already done. On the other hand we definitely need more tutorials on how to mod, guides, examples, etc. But that is not directly related to the game itself. And frankly, we simply can't do it by ourselves. We are hoping that the players can help us with that. Basic information is already available, but to make it easier and with more detailed instructions - we need your help!

So, again, thank you very much to everyone who expressed their opinion and I hope we can fully meet your expectations when we release the game! :)
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: kyokei on December 25, 2014, 01:47:14 AM
Welcome Lurler, I'd also want to mention that SPAZ2 is coming out early 2015 so you might want to release before they release or you might have issues with your sales.
I would say no matter what go on Early Access in January and post the few improvement points you are still working it before release, and put goals for if your sales are crazy awesome high!

Or release the game after the christmas sale as Single Player focused and put as your goal that you will move out of early access after adding the multiplayer things
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: SpaceButler on December 25, 2014, 10:54:30 AM
Is it ready for Gold? 

Yes, by today's standard.

Is today's standard Good?

NO

It's not good.  Too many  games are getting released too early, and that promising feeling you use to get with a completed game no longer  exists.

Whats missing in this game?

Better Multiplayer aspects.

You could do a whole lot with this game in terms of MP.  Not just what Kyokei stated about group systems and quest sharing, but beyond that.  If you can fit a 64 player servers, there's enough there to claim territories, win over factions to assist you against other player factions, constructing bases (trading, storage, etc) and so much more.  There's a lot already going on in Void Expanse, but as the word suggest, Expand. 

More Hull and Hull Customization.

I think what we have right now is pretty swell.  But the more ships I see on the screen, the more I'd want to collect.  I mean it's a big galaxy.  We should have more ships I think.  And we should be able to do more with the colors of the ships.  Even the energy that emits from it should be colorful I think :P

I mean it might seem like a lot to ask, but it makes it that much more worth it.


On he subject of SPAZ2.  I'm going to get it.  But that doesn't mean I wont stop playing Void Expanse.  People who liked SPAZ will see Void Expanse.  They'll see SPAZ2 as well, but for me I'm going to own all of it because I grew up playing Armada on Dreamcast.  I don't think it'll effect your sales as much as you think.

Honestly, you fix the multiplayer up a bit more, and I'd say it's good to go.

(Btw, did you fix some of the text issues in the narratives?)

Lastly, I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, New Years, etc etc!
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Tchey on December 25, 2014, 02:39:53 PM
I would say "yes but...".

- Don't release an early access. It has became a standard, and lots of games are unfinished after 3, 6, 12, 24... months or early and some without more than one tiny update every 3 months ! Even if you give your word you will finish it in 3 months. People are losing faith in early, you can feel it if you read some big websites, even on Steam's forum.

- Clean the bugs. You are one of the most reactive team i've seen, and i feel i can trust you. You are listening, talking, active but still keep a goal, not just follow the big guy yelling on the forum.

- The game seems "complete" but...

There is still a lot do add, crafting, scavenging debris, etc, but mostly, i also feel the univers is dead. I don't know what is it, it's not so funny to play more than several hours. All seems to be "cold". So because i can't find the "why and how" of this last point, i have to say "yes but...".

In my opinion, the way to go is not to release "Early Access", but to realease a full release bug free and feature complete, and then, continue to support your game. Look at http://arcengames.com/ for me this team is amazing, they keep supporting the main games for month, years, with patch to fix but also to add, all for free, with some low cost expansion sometime. Another amazing team is from http://www.starwraith.com/ (Evochron)

Voted "Yes".
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Hammish on December 25, 2014, 11:17:14 PM
This seems like a good place to toss out an idea I had once upon a time: I see a lot of calls for new added hulls and equipment... and you have a highly customizable game...

Have you considered doing something along the lines of Official AT-Approved Mods?  A bit above and beyond the mod spotlight, it'll really help sell the game and make it seem more alive/full if you find a way to stress them even more.  The best mods, that have a lot of polish tossed on them and a lot of work done, are really going to shine and help the core game look good as well.  Steam Workshop will help a lot with that, you could also give the option to have mods downloaded via the AT launcher; I don't know what your data rates are like but honestly unless mods have a ton of art assets they are going to be teensy, and since you'd have control over what shows via the launcher you can restrict it to a certain file size so things don't get out of hand on said data rates.

The idea about ship colorization is a good one, though.  I remember once upon a time there was talk about separating the ship skin from the hull model; is this still a possibility or moved backburner?  Seems like it'd be more of a UI issue than anything to me, since the skin is already separately defined in the hull XML; changing that could be as easy as finding a spot in the UI for a Ship Skin item and then having the ship stats compilation routine look there instead of the hull XML. :)
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: kyokei on December 26, 2014, 01:44:40 AM
Quote from: Hammish on December 25, 2014, 11:17:14 PM
This seems like a good place to toss out an idea I had once upon a time: I see a lot of calls for new added hulls and equipment... and you have a highly customizable game...

Have you considered doing something along the lines of Official AT-Approved Mods?  A bit above and beyond the mod spotlight, it'll really help sell the game and make it seem more alive/full if you find a way to stress them even more.  The best mods, that have a lot of polish tossed on them and a lot of work done, are really going to shine and help the core game look good as well.  Steam Workshop will help a lot with that, you could also give the option to have mods downloaded via the AT launcher; I don't know what your data rates are like but honestly unless mods have a ton of art assets they are going to be teensy, and since you'd have control over what shows via the launcher you can restrict it to a certain file size so things don't get out of hand on said data rates.

The idea about ship colorization is a good one, though.  I remember once upon a time there was talk about separating the ship skin from the hull model; is this still a possibility or moved backburner?  Seems like it'd be more of a UI issue than anything to me, since the skin is already separately defined in the hull XML; changing that could be as easy as finding a spot in the UI for a Ship Skin item and then having the ship stats compilation routine look there instead of the hull XML. :)

This makes me think of what the devs of Starbound did. They ended up integrating some of the community mods into the game.
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: xDmDx on December 26, 2014, 02:32:54 AM
 Game is very good,but I would like to see more life in space (for example: police,military force,npc-traders,dynamic NPC interaction) like a Space Rangers.
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Zer0Glitch on December 26, 2014, 07:06:22 AM
Quote from: Lurler on December 25, 2014, 12:44:23 AM

Zer0Glitch, about your suggestions. I will be completely honest here. Even though all of them sounds great they are simply beyond the scope of what we can do now. It is simply not possible with the things as they are now. We would need at least 2 new people (developer and artist) on the team and MASSIVE funding to make this happen. Especially the first two points, as that would require major changes to the core game. So, I have to say - no. It is, unfortunately, not possible, not unless we have massive sales on Steam that would enable us to continue working on the game for another half a year.

I totally understand and respect the fact that you can only do what you can do based on the funding and time you have. And perhaps my suggestions were a little too ambitious for the game this late in the development cycle (where I'm sure you're far more interested in bug squashing and mechanics tuning).

While I stand by my comments and opinions maybe I can lay out a more realistic suggestion that might be better suited for the game and for your development time and budget.

Bare Bones Road:
You guys have already done an absolutely amazing job opening up the API to the game for modding. Seriously impressed. So, to utilize this, I would suggest (as I did above) to spend some time documenting (improve on the wiki), writing guides and tutorials on how to do some of the basic things, and perhaps offer a way to host "Authorized" mods from your site.

The logic behind this:
Since your time and money are limited but most of the players of the game won't be, giving them to tools to create things is by far your greatest asset. So empowering and encouraging them to create mods and giving them the guidance to ensure they don't get frustrated during the process will be a tremendous boon for the life of the game. And giving them the knowledge in an easy to understand format will give people the courage to try new things.

Middle of the Road:
I don't know what else you have hidden behind the curtain of the engine (if anything), but exposing more of the underlying game logic would also be a good way of helping it along (for the reasons stated above). Past that, since a galaxy wide simulation is out of the question (understandable), then perhaps a more system local way of approaching it would be easier? I haven't toyed that much with the API (though I plan to shortly) but I think I remember it being possible to spawn things on a timer. Would local "events" be a tough thing to add before release? Doesn't have to be grand scale. Maybe just skirmishes between pirates and local enforcements. Random asteroids flying through the system (if you can stop it, you can mine it, o r you can get crushed by it.) . Really anything that can happen in a system other than the 3 patrols of Pirates and the 30 others just chilling across the system waiting for you to wander by. I'm not talking fancy here, just more movement. Again, I understand if this is not feasible. Just trying to help! 

Unicorn Road (it's a real thing, shut up):
I suppose everything else I stated in my previous post. Though understandably not realistic this late in the cycle.

Understanding that adding more developers/artists/designers/etc is out of the question at this point, really just supporting mod development  going forward will be the biggest thing (not that I think you won't, just saying).

In conclusion (you seriously read this, all the way to here? give yourself a cookie!), thank you so much for taking the time to seriously consider our thoughts and opinions about this game, even when they are wildly unrealistic. ;) I will do what I can to help you guys make this game a raging success! Which I know it will be! :)
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Hammish on December 27, 2014, 11:06:40 AM
Events like more aggressive pirates going after things should be fairly easy I think; look at the headhunter mobs that have a chance of spawning.   Just need to create a custom version of the general AI script for pirates and up the aggro radius while possibly at the same time setting them to spawn as a group, which should increase the likelihood that they hunt as a pack.

There's no real API for the game, though, just a collection of assets you can modify as you so desire.  By hand, like your father's father did it. ;)  That said, the vast majority of stuff CAN be edited and after you start digging around the AT guys are at least willing to listen and possibly oblige if you want a new variable added to tinker with (like the change to firing origin points, ect).  The only major thing you can't edit is the in-game GUI; even coming up with a more robust, larger galaxy shouldn't be out of the question since you have access to all of the universe-generation scripts and can tweak them accordingly.  How much spawns where, what shops have, game skills, all these are modifiable (and I've personally tinkered with the last two)

Another add I had, though: when you do release, you might want to think about finding someone with a lot of spare time to help out as a forum moderator, especially for the mods section.  Even if you don't have officially-endorsed mods downloadable through the launcher, having someone assisting with keeping on top of mods (common thread with updated links, possibly even subforums for the larger mods) will be a huge boon.  Best example I can think of along these lines was the game Mount & Blade, a small indie game done by a husband and wife that has managed to take on cult status in a way thanks to the various mods available for an excellent core engine.  And they made enough off that to be able to fund three xpacs and now a full sequel. :)
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: RavenFellBlade on December 27, 2014, 06:56:07 PM
I would really love to say that the game is ready for prime time. It isn't. As someone stated earlier, it may be "ready" by today's not-so-exacting standards, I think you guys seem to be a cut above the rest. I take what you say about wanting customers to have the best experience possible at face value. While I have had a blast playing the game, I have had a blast knowing that the game is in an unfinished state. I've been having as much fun hunting pirates as I have hunting (and reporting) bugs. I haven't really run into any critical, game-breaking bugs, yet, but there are still enough of them to be distinctly "beta"-flavored.
The long and short of it is this:
1) I would expect the game to be as bug-free as is reasonable to expect. Your team seems to be doing an excellent job working towards that end, so hopefully that will be very near-future.
2) I expect the game to be feature-complete. This is a bit of a muddy pond, though... What, by your collective (Atomic Torch's) definition is "feature complete"? Is this just the main story line in Singleplayer? How about multiplayer? Is that "feature complete" in its current state, or do you see it as a work-in-progress still? Are crafting, scavenging, planetary interactions, or further development of the skill tree considered a part of the "feature complete" picture, or are any or all of these "possible future developments, time and budget permiting"?
3) Provided you are clear about exactly what you see as a finished product, and are prepared to deliver that product, only then should you be considering going live with the game.
4) Be realistic about what is likely to make it into the game post-launch, and then be completely open with the community about it. If crafting isn't feasible, the earlier you can definitively inform your customers, the less likely you are to see significant backlash. Look no further than Elite: Dangerous and the "offline single player" fiasco for a perfect example of what NOT to do.
5) As far as I can tell, you guys seem to be pretty much living up to all of these expectations, so far. I thank you for that.

I can also say that I get the same "lifeless" feeling from the game, at times. It DOES feel like a gigantic Pirate shooting gallery, with the occasional NPC Merchant getting ganked by pirates. On the one hand, I would like to see that "fixed" by some small degrees...but on the other hand, I also see it as painting the VoidExpanse as "Mad Max in Space", where pretty much everyone has either become a pirate, or become a victim of pirates. The few legitimate merchants you see are still desperately clinging onto their lives and their common decency, but life so far away from the rest of galactic civilization, stuck right next door to alien bugs wanting to eat your babies... it's taken its toll. This is a region of space where goodwill has gone to die. The game is really, in a sense, a story about more than just the physical survival of humanity, but of humans struggling not to lose their humanity, and the game starts off with you on the losing side of the struggle. In that sense, VoidExpanse is doing a pretty good job depicting that sense of desolation, like you really are just about the last person who isn't actively cannibalizing what little is left of civilization. Or maybe... maybe you are. Depends on how you play the game.
Having said all of that, though, I really do wish there were just a tad more variety in deep-space NPC interaction. Miners and Merchants are there, sure, but you don't really see a lot in the way of law enforcement. I also really do want to see a crafting system of some sort in place, preferably one that offers the ability to make unique equipment, or perhaps modify hulls such as improving stats, upgrading weapon slots, or altering weapons slot types. The crafting tree, as I see it in my head, would basically look like a secondary skill tree to the main one, wherein crafting skills require a prerequisite in both the base crafting level, plus a prerequisite in the associated skill branch, such as requiring second tier crafting plus medium energy weapons to craft medium energy weapons, etc. But that's just me digressing. I don't really know just how difficult it would be to implement a crafting system, or the scavenging system, or the ability to interact with planets... or even what, exactly, interacting with planets would even entail. Maybe have the "faction relationship" system... I don't know how to really put this... "Do more"? I don't really see a tremendous effect from faction relations, at this point.
Knowing where you feel the game stands, and knowing what features are certain, possible, and just not feasible in the short-term, and post-launch, is a good starting point for this discussion. 
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: jeeplaw on December 29, 2014, 09:38:33 AM
Raven makes some incredibly valid points. I'm with him, I like you guys as a dev team. If you charged more for the game, I'd still buy it to support you. I've got the sort of insight that comes as a gamer who just turned 40 and who grew up with the all the greats, and not so greats, of all the games inside the space genre. I also interact with software dev teams on a daily basis, qa teams, marketing and distribution from the 50k foot and sometimes down to the 10 foot level.

So with that, I need to temper what the game should be with what you guys have the resources to do.

Any game you make should be fun. And as it is today with the upgrade paths, the skill tree, and quest system - sure it's fun for a bit, until the outer layers get peeled back to show the game for what it really is. It's not very deep. And that's fine. For the price point you're offering it, and for what you guys set out to do (from what we can all see), you wanted to build a fun game, and it is.

It's not the level of the X3 series, and that's more than fine. It's not an empire building game. It's not as shallow as SPAZ, and that's more than fine too. Is it as loot heavy as Drox Operative? Nope, and that's cool too.

But in my mind, what's missing from "going gold", is the procedural generation of the fun events that happen within any given star system that allows you to hang your hat on something. You guys have the framework for something great. Hammish has explored that, the other Danish fellow (I assume he's Danish?) has graphically modded ships as well. So you've proven to provide a really good framework to add on and mod the game and to allow the community to participate.

In my mind, you guys need something, ANYTHING, to stand out in the crowd. Serious question, and this is coming from someone who is often involved in multimillion dollar software publishing deals: what makes your game so great within the marketplace that enables it to stand out from someone else, to garner someone else's hard earned money to go to YOU?

So, again in my opinion:
1) Graphics are where they need to be
2) Music is where it needs to be
3) Platform is stable
4) Environment is large enough
5) Easy to use interface

6) Mission generation is too static, needs to be more varied
7) More random events or at least build us a mission generator front end.
8) A sense of allowing the player to feel that he is a part of the environment as opposed to just going sector to sector randomly picking up goods, or killing pirates
9) Crafting sounds good but again..to what greater good? To build the biggest, baddest ship? What is the reason to entice someone to keep playing? Eradication of pirates, aliens? Amass fortune?

Like I said, great framework and a fun time waster for upgrading ships, bigger weapons, better killing..but in the end that's all it is right now. Keep on going though, you guys as a dev house are definitely worthy of our support!
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: djs4000 on December 29, 2014, 11:21:53 PM
I hope it doesn't discourage you guys, but my short answer is no. Not Gold. Early access? yeah! RavenFellBlade and Jeeplaw have given you some great advice, and you guys do have a good product, that just needs a little bit more content.

My 2 cents is that you guys are sitting on what could be a fantastic multiplayer game, but seem a bit confused. As it stands, you have have created what is a fun little single player game. Content isn't huge, but for the price it's acceptable. You've added dedicated server support, which I think means you want this game to be multiplayer, but that's where the majority of features are missing. If you were going to make a coop game, peer to peer multiplayer would've been fine. At the moment there seems to be little reason to join a mp server just to play the story. MP should have crafting, and trading, and some sort of grouping mechanic, and any other mechanic that drives player interaction.

You guys have a beautiful looking game, with a solid engine, and a ton of great features. I think now you have to decide: do you make a deeper single player game, with more missions, more items and dynamic npc interactions, or do you focus on the multiplayer and add all the features that would drive a healthy online community? Either answer is fine, and you could even work towards both. You guys are a great team, and I think the game would do well as an early access title. Communities tend to respond well to EA games that have active devs who communicate regularly. You guys are exceptional at that. Whatever you decide to do, thank you for making this game, and thank you for being so good to your community.
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Hammish on December 30, 2014, 08:29:23 AM
Oh, I did have one more piece of advice to offer, though this is something I just know I'm personally wary of (and someone mentioned it tangentially above regarding Elite):

Make a note somewhere that if you ever /are/ going to discontinue support for VE, that you'll at least release a version of the game with the Master Server connection disabled and glossed over.  I don't mind it, personally, and as someone who has admin'd plenty of game servers I like the accountability that it brings, having your login account connected to stuff... but people also want to know that they'll be able to continue playing their game for some time. :)
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Zer0Glitch on December 30, 2014, 08:40:34 AM
QuoteOh, I did have one more piece of advice to offer, though this is something I just know I'm personally wary of (and someone mentioned it tangentially above regarding Elite):

Make a note somewhere that if you ever /are/ going to discontinue support for VE, that you'll at least release a version of the game with the Master Server connection disabled and glossed over.  I don't mind it, personally, and as someone who has admin'd plenty of game servers I like the accountability that it brings, having your login account connected to stuff... but people also want to know that they'll be able to continue playing their game for some time. :)

^ Very much that! Couldn't have put it better myself. I'm fine with having a Master Server login while the game is in development and is being actively marketed and sold. But, God forbid, you guys can no longer support the Master Server, being able to play it with out having to log into one would be GREATLY appreciated! :)
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Lurler on January 06, 2015, 08:50:41 PM
Thank you again everyone for your suggestions here in this thread.

We've just released a new update where we tried to address as much of what you said in this thread as possible. I hope the game feels more complete now!

Patch notes for this update: http://forums.atomictorch.com/index.php?topic=409
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Creat on February 02, 2015, 07:21:33 PM
I haven't opened the game in quite some time, but the impending release (and the fact that I actually have a bit of time now) sucked me back in.

My first comment is about a rather small issue actually (but the first thing I've noticed): While it's awesome (and important) that controls can be rebound, the interface for it is quite inconvenient. It's still not possible to bind a key that is currently bound, for example when I want to swap two keys. I first have to bind one of them to some random/unused button. It should give the option to re-assign the key (but do tell us in the dialog to what the key is currently bound).

The second issue is also of a rather mechanical nature: The launcher still downloads and installs the game into %localappdata% (of the current user). Please please please change this before release. This is not where executables and programs (or even games) go. They go in "Program Files" (as per MS guidelines). While it is now possible to change this manually, the launcher still doesn't request UAC elevation to perform updates (or the first install), making it impractical. This system is also a bit broken, I'm gonna make a bug-report post about that though (possibly tomorrow?). Another issue with this is, that when launcher is run with admin privileges, the game is also (unnecessarily) launched with admin rights.

It seems the support for launch arguments in a file called ".launch_args_custom" seems to have been broken. I used it to pass "-popupwindow" to the game while still being able to run it from the launcher, but this no longer works. The parameter works fine when VoidExpanse.exe is called directly with the argument, but doesn't seem to respond to using the mentioned config-file.

Speaking of -popupwindow: It would be really nice if the "full screen windowed" option could simply be available in the video options (since unity already supports it anyway).
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: ai_enabled on February 04, 2015, 08:52:41 PM
Creat,
Quote from: Creat on February 02, 2015, 07:21:33 PMIt's still not possible to bind a key that is currently bound, for example when I want to swap two keys.
Thanks for reporting! We improved it in the v1.0.2 released yesterday.

Quote from: Creat on February 02, 2015, 07:21:33 PMIt seems the support for launch arguments in file called ".launch_args_custom" seems to have been broken.
The game data is separated on static part (which is including executable file, unmodifiable and supposed to be stored in Program files) and dynamic part which is located in user documents. So ".launch_args_custom" file should be located at "<user documents>\AtomicTorchStudio\VoidExpanse\.launch_args_custom".

Quote from: Creat on February 02, 2015, 07:21:33 PMIt would be really nice if the "full screen windowed" option could simply be available in the video options (since unity already supports it anyway).
Hm, I can't find the Unity API method for doing that. The game is built to using fullscreen DX9 mode already. But there are no option to change the window style to "popup" window with the current Unity API. So we can't add the option for that...

Quote from: Creat on February 02, 2015, 07:21:33 PMThe second issue is also of a rather mechanical nature: The launcher still downloads and installs the game into %localappdata% (of the current user). Please please please change this before release. This is not where executables and programs (or even games) go. They go in "Program Files" (as per MS guidelines). While it is now possible to change this manually, the launcher still doesn't request UAC elevation to perform updates (or the first install), making it impractical. This system is also a bit broken, I'm gonna make a bug-report post about that though (possibly tomorrow?). Another issue with this is, that when launcher is run with admin privileges, the game is also (unnecessarily) launched with admin rights.
Yes, you're absolutely right and that's why we divided the game data on static and dynamic parts. Sure, we will update GameLauncher soon to use the "Program Files" folder by default.

Regards!
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: omicron on March 16, 2015, 02:54:02 PM
so...here my few cents...

1. i love the game. playing about 23 hours now ;)

2. what bothers me is the fixed gun mount.
when i aim at a target with automatic flight (ship turns with mouse i mean)
the guns, who can turn, aim at the target, but the stationary guns doesn`t.
the problem is: when i aim with the  tracking guns i hit with them...no problem
but when i try to correct the vecktor for the stationary ones, i miss with the tracking guns.
would be nice if the ship allign to the stationary wapons ;)

3. good big universe!
but nothing to explore :(
the only thing to explore other sectors is quests and the yellow boxes.

4. yellow boxes are a good idea!
but once empty, always emty and the guard comes always back.
maybe the emty ones disapear? would be great ;)

5. guard of the yellow boxes.
havy! maybe it`s me, but this thing always hits. (emp 4tw :P)
is there a chance for a easy game mode, where the npc`s
have more fail shots like a normal player?

6. savegames
the game uses just 1 savegame spot right?
i don`t trust it ;)
i had never problems with it, but what happens when a savegame is damaged?

7. ships
i love the design of the ships. never saw a game, where nearly every ship is that cool!
but...when i am specialized on lasers i just can use a few of them.
you ever think about just - I  II  III -  slots without specialisation?
maybe with an upgrade, an very expensive ones.
i love upgrades!

8. sectors without minimap
wich one had that idea?
thats evil!!!!  :P
another upgrade to avoid that maybe?
i love upgrades!

9. quests
just a plenty of them. it`s ok, but i can`t repeat them.
in the main systems they just need my help 1 time.
maybe repeatable after a while?
and maybe i can select wich one i want to do?
there is no sense of mining mission when i am in a fighter with just 100 cargo and he needs 150 of something.
it`s not possible to deliver it step by step, you have to deliver it all in once.

10. fuel
good idea with that, makes is more interresting. should i engage more fights, or go and get fuel?
when i am in the red sectors, the way to refuel gets longer and longer.
fuel consumables would be nice ;)

thats it...just a few points and maybe you think about one or another point
point 2 is my favorite so far  ::)

keep going in that fantastic way you did!

yours faithfully
omicron, the friendy austrian who speaks a crappy english  :-\
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Silberspeer on March 16, 2015, 09:59:55 PM
It's a chest of coins, actually! :)
Ok, let's do it.

1. It's good to know it!
2. Well, you can bind tracking guns to different mouse button and shoot fixed and trackers separately. That is the only reasonable way.
3. What do you suggest? What are you missing most?
4. No. There should be the chance of empty chest, for spicing up your life.
5. Ok. Imagine a game with no effort needed. How long will you stay there?
6. You can backup your saves. But no duplication or other tricks are possible.  I could also say, that we have implemented a saves protection system, so don't worry about it.
7. Yep, upgrades are cool. But in current game architecture we find universal slots inconsistent. And in a close future in won't change.
8. See the part about spicing up your life and efforts:) It is not an incredibly tough task and it changes your gameplay for some time. So - just go for it.
9. Let's start from the end. Mining mission means mining ship, I presume. We would fix it if there were no other way to solve the problem and if it was a blocker. But it is not. So, just be flexible and creative. Repeating quests - well, we'll think about it, sounds quite interesting. Especially when there is a possibility to play after finishing the game.
10. Yeah, I just had an idea to discuss adding some little fuel to the loot crates. Will see, what colleagues say.


Danke, und viele Gruesse zu Osterreich! ;)


Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: omicron on March 17, 2015, 08:17:45 AM
Quote from: Silberspeer on March 16, 2015, 09:59:55 PM
It's a chest of coins, actually! :)
Ok, let's do it.

1. It's good to know it!
2. Well, you can bind tracking guns to different mouse button and shoot fixed and trackers separately. That is the only reasonable way.
3. What do you suggest? What are you missing most?
4. No. There should be the chance of empty chest, for spicing up your life.
5. Ok. Imagine a game with no effort needed. How long will you stay there?
6. You can backup your saves. But no duplication or other tricks are possible.  I could also say, that we have implemented a saves protection system, so don't worry about it.
7. Yep, upgrades are cool. But in current game architecture we find universal slots inconsistent. And in a close future in won't change.
8. See the part about spicing up your life and efforts:) It is not an incredibly tough task and it changes your gameplay for some time. So - just go for it.
9. Let's start from the end. Mining mission means mining ship, I presume. We would fix it if there were no other way to solve the problem and if it was a blocker. But it is not. So, just be flexible and creative. Repeating quests - well, we'll think about it, sounds quite interesting. Especially when there is a possibility to play after finishing the game.
10. Yeah, I just had an idea to discuss adding some little fuel to the loot crates. Will see, what colleagues say.


Danke, und viele Gruesse zu Osterreich! ;)

thanks for the fast response ;)

let`s do it again!

2. that`s a good thing, do it the hole time, but try to aim a stationary enemy (base defenders, small ones) and try to hit him as fast as possible with the stationary weapon.
you will see that you have to do corrections. (not in manually mode, maybe i am too old to handle that one :P)
the ship did`t do the full turn to the cursor, it stops about 15 - 20 degrees before it.
omg...i hope you understand that what i mean.  ;D

3. maybe secrets? anomalies to scan, rare enemies to find with good loot.
i have no idea how difficult it is to give a ship a specific colour, but would be great if rare enemies have another one.

4. hehe ok. maybe i just should remember then wich chest i looted :P

5. don`t missunderstand that please. i like difficult games!
but when i kill a heavy enemy and just get 20 2d ore...mmmh
when i know the reward is great, the risk is worth it.
maybe just 1 time, that it`s not farmable, becouse that ship comes always back.

6. ok great! the fear is from another game...you guys know how to do it ;)

7. hm ok, but is you make a upgrade, tool, or booster that costs maybe 300.000 credits, it`s nothing i can buy at the beginning and i have to
make money by farming for it. so i stay longer in game with a target.
maybe speak about it, just a hint.

8. where does spicing up begins and frustration ends? :P
open the map about 50 times, bumping in nearby every thing hehe
zooming further away would be less depressive ;)

9. ah! ok, nuff said! ;)

10. good idea!

and a last question: do boosters stack,
when i buy 4 times the fuel reduction in the sience station?

vielen dank ;)
( it takes maybe an hour now to repost with brainstorming and remembering all the english words i learned YEARS ago and a dictionary, but i better answer in english ;) )
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Silberspeer on March 17, 2015, 10:03:08 PM
Quote from: omicron on March 17, 2015, 08:17:45 AM
thanks for the fast response ;)

let`s do it again!

2. that`s a good thing, do it the hole time, but try to aim a stationary enemy (base defenders, small ones) and try to hit him as fast as possible with the stationary weapon.
you will see that you have to do corrections. (not in manually mode, maybe i am too old to handle that one :P)
the ship did`t do the full turn to the cursor, it stops about 15 - 20 degrees before it.
omg...i hope you understand that what i mean.  ;D

3. maybe secrets? anomalies to scan, rare enemies to find with good loot.
i have no idea how difficult it is to give a ship a specific colour, but would be great if rare enemies have another one.

4. hehe ok. maybe i just should remember then wich chest i looted :P

5. don`t missunderstand that please. i like difficult games!
but when i kill a heavy enemy and just get 20 2d ore...mmmh
when i know the reward is great, the risk is worth it.
maybe just 1 time, that it`s not farmable, becouse that ship comes always back.

6. ok great! the fear is from another game...you guys know how to do it ;)

7. hm ok, but is you make a upgrade, tool, or booster that costs maybe 300.000 credits, it`s nothing i can buy at the beginning and i have to
make money by farming for it. so i stay longer in game with a target.
maybe speak about it, just a hint.

8. where does spicing up begins and frustration ends? :P
open the map about 50 times, bumping in nearby every thing hehe
zooming further away would be less depressive ;)

9. ah! ok, nuff said! ;)

10. good idea!

and a last question: do boosters stack,
when i buy 4 times the fuel reduction in the sience station?

vielen dank ;)
( it takes maybe an hour now to repost with brainstorming and remembering all the english words i learned YEARS ago and a dictionary, but i better answer in english ;) )

Hi! Seems, like a habit already:))) Ok, let's do it again

2. well... okay :D
3. We are thinking about ships colors and, actually, about a possibility to manually set the skins for ships. To give players a possibility to make their own skins. It sounds exciting, but we need an implementation plan first. Anyway, idea is already there, I hope we will be able to do it. Secrets? Maybe.
5. Hm, does it happen too often?
7. Ok, I'll. say it more clear. NO. :D No upgrades. Forget it. It's just not possible. We'll think about adding an expensive ITEM, but that's all we can do.
8. Well, yeah, it is so. About zooming out - we don't have an IRIS engine, or whatever name it has. The one from Wargame Red Dragon. Zoom has its measures.


Ok, boosters. Now they are not stacking, but this is a bug and they will stack in a new version. We fixed it.

Well, cya, come again! Anyway, my German is worse, than your English.
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: WelshPixie on March 18, 2015, 12:06:21 AM
Quote from: Silberspeer on March 17, 2015, 10:03:08 PM
3. We are thinking about ships colors and, actually, about a possibility to manually set the skins for ships. To give players to make their own skins. It sounds exciting, but we need an implementation plan first.

Awesome! I'd love that :D

I assumed what Omicron meant when they mentioned upgrades was the ability to purchase a more expensive item rather than upgrading an item that you've already purchased - the same way that the other upgrades in the game work (like when you replace your shield with a better one, I consider that to be upgrading it). I'm not sure how that would work with lasers on ships though - perhaps some ship hulls that have generic weapon slots instead of specified slots?
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Silberspeer on March 18, 2015, 12:58:55 AM
Quote from: WelshPixie on March 18, 2015, 12:06:21 AM
Awesome! I'd love that :D

I assumed what Omicron meant when they mentioned upgrades was the ability to purchase a more expensive item rather than upgrading an item that you've already purchased - the same way that the other upgrades in the game work (like when you replace your shield with a better one, I consider that to be upgrading it). I'm not sure how that would work with lasers on ships though - perhaps some ship hulls that have generic weapon slots instead of specified slots?

Yeah, I described the only way upgrading is possible.
And there will be no generic slots. This is our motivated decision.
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: WelshPixie on March 18, 2015, 01:33:33 AM
Quote from: Silberspeer on March 18, 2015, 12:58:55 AM
Yeah, I described the only way upgrading is possible.
And there will be no generic slots. This is our motivated decision.

Gotcha o7 That's good though - it adds another element of balancing to the game, choosing a ship which fits your skills, or assigning your skills based on the ship you want. ^.^
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: omicron on March 18, 2015, 07:13:01 AM
skin colours sounds great ;)
will enjoy that!

to 5.
yes it happens often, small easy ships = less loot is normal and absolutely ok.
but the bigger ones too...i mostly ovoid them and fly away, in the same time
i destroy 5 small ones with more xp ;)

to 7.
ok...i shut up now :P

to 8.
ah ok! didn`t know that. thought there is a game designer limitation on that.
have to live with it!

great to hear that boosters will stack.
just see the 1.0.8 is out. is it possible there?
will be great :D

i will come again ;)
hope i didn`t use too much of your time!
if so: just tell me.

if your german is worse than my english...it must be horrible hehe :P

have a nice day!
cya
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: kyokei on March 24, 2015, 11:53:50 AM
Major grats on setting the date - I have my fingers and toes crossed for you guys :)
Title: Re: Is VoidExpanse ready for gold?
Post by: Silberspeer on March 24, 2015, 09:15:41 PM
Quote from: kyokei on March 24, 2015, 11:53:50 AM
Major grats on setting the date - I have my fingers and toes crossed for you guys :)

Thank you, kyokei! We hope everything will pay off 8)