Trading

[Swiur_Yngwi]

At the start I want to emphsise: I was focusing most of my ingame time on trading mechanics. It was my main goal in this server run to test it.

- How often do you need to restock? How many times a day?

I tried to restock the machines twice a day. Like every 12 hours (that also depended on my free time i could spent in the game). Normally it took me two runs for each market: once to see what is missing and second - to deliver goods.

- Is the storage capacity enough?

Well, hard to say. On one hand, it could be bigger -> more goods will be stocked. On the other hand, when TS is destroyed, more goods will be lost too. Sometimes i wished to have more display options (in big machine u can set up up to 6 products). So, yes, 4 slots in storage and 2 in display could be useful.

- In trading stations that buy items - how do you control how many of each items you want to buy?

In the current system it is mostly impossible. Mostly because of its simplicity. The only way I see to control my demand is to set every single needed product/resource in separate machine. And control it by amount of coins in each one.

- How many coins do you typically keep in each trading stations?

Like mentioned before, I tried to leave about 30% of my income in the buying machines. So, when after 12 hours I grabbed like 1500 coins, 500 was reinvested. It could change slightly depending  on my ongoing needs and prices set for buying. Now I don't keep more than a 1000 coins in every buying machine.

- How do you decide how much of each type of goods to stock?

To use storage space to maximum, stack was my main number. But I had always keep in mind that TS can be destroyed and then I lose what is inside. So all resources were in one stack maximum. Usable items, like bandages, cigars, vodka - up to 5 stacks. Ammo - up to 4 stacks maximum. For unitary items, like hazmat suit, armour, weapon - up to 3 units. For low tier unitary units, like leather armour - up to 5 units each type. Very important! U need to leave one slot in storage free - for coins.

- Do you advertise your services in any way?

Yes, I did. I wanted all players to know about my market. So, almost every time i restocked the machines I gave info about that on global chat with coordinates to the place. And it worked pretty good. But of course it would be nice to have a possiblity for more "agressive" marketing, like banners, TV commercials (when eletricity is introduced). And more building options in area of trading would be good too. Like - "welcome" entries, signboards, etc...

- Do you have regulars? If so - do they leave any feedback to you about your trading stations? Have you made any changes based on their feedback?

U mean returning customers? Yes, I did. And that was the most satisfactory part of that test. People were asking for restocking certain products, or giving me the info what is missing at the moment. And I did adjusted prices of few products based on their feedback. After few days of running the market i noticed that when a new player was asking on chat where to find lithium or plastic, sometimes he got answered like: market, coords, cheap. So, the info was spreading around on itself. And in some way I got respected (I am not boasting myself here now, just giving my expressions). Funny moments: One called me "the king of trade" and one hand love to me 

- Would you change anything in the current trading system?

Partially this question is already answered above. Little more storage slots. Little more display slots. More paying options - not only goods for coins, but also goods for goods. Maybe a dedicated landclaim that will make TS area PVE (but still with raiding option). I didn't liked the fact, that when two TS were buildednext to each other, u could freely move between them. That knowledge "costed" me two trading stations. To make them unaccesible from behind to the third party, u need to separate them with wall. And of course statistics.

In one of the future versions we are also going to introduce detailed statistics to make keeping track of your sales easier. Do you have any requests for this or additional features?

Well, I have a master degree in economics and work all my life in trading, so.... some basic statistics could be very helpful. Now i used my memory and a sheet of paper for that. And had no competition - did not have to worry about their prices and stock. More sophisticated solutions will mostly depend on how trading will develop in the future. Options are limitless.

[Lurler]

Thank you very much for taking time to write such a detailed answer. This is really valuable to us, as there aren't many people who utilize the trading system to its fullest yet. So, I really appreciate your help!

Based on your feedback we are making some changes to the trading station and economic approach already. Not everything will be ready in the next update though.
Another thing I noticed is that neither you, nor other players who used trading station didn't use shiny coins, only penny coins. But I wonder why? You could probably even setup an exchange station where you can exchange between different coins at an exchange rate you feel comfortable with.
But either way - in the next update we are changing the recipes for both coins slightly to help and make them both more useful in trading.

Are you planning to run a large store again in the next update?

[prodrunk]

the problem with the trading is certain demands for goods.

first the good things:
The trading system is unique and good. Keep it mostly that way, maybe add some upgrades possible to the trading machine like the land claim tier.
better machine is more room, more hp, more slots

possible to click the trading icon on the map which gives you a message which can be set on the trading machine like a list of cost of items and such.

I am now setting up a trading system so players actually can get the stuff they need to mine at my trading station, so they dont have to go back, that helps but not ideal.

I have made several pages full of data with prices and everything.
depending on the price I give for resources, thats how much a product would cost
this means if I lower my prices then the price of the end product is lower aswell.

so base prices I ask
5 ore = 1 coin
10, potassium or sulfur or pyrite all 1 coin
10 natural rubber = 1 coin
12 logs = 1 coin
20 sand = 1 coin
8 coal = 1 coin
3 leaves = 1 coin
1 mineral oil = 5 coins
1 lithium salts = 3 coins

here are the prices at what I should sell to break even
handgun = 141 coins
military shotgun = 279 coins
submachine gun = 340 coins
heavy machinegun = 715 coins

standard 10m ammo = 13,35 coins
10m AP ammo = 15,65 coins
10m HP Ammo = 13,5 coins
12 gauge slug ammo = 24,4 coins
.300 AP ammo = 54,75 coins
.300 incendiary ammo = 58,25 coins

iron mace = 23,35 coins
steel pickaxe = 36,35 coins
steel axe = 36,35 coins

10 mining charges = 33,5 coins

military armor 1 part = 73,5 coins
assault armor 1 part = 207,4 coins
hazmat suit = 401,5 coins
APART suit = 608,4 coins

night vsision = 242 coins

large power bank = 451,5 coins
standard power bank = 248,25 coins

this at first glance looks okay, the hazmat and apart are expensive, but thats my choice coss of putting mineral oil and lithium salts that price.

for the armor the prices are fantastic, the guns on the other hand are slightly too expensive, this mainly due to the requirments of rubber

to make rubber it costs 5 natural rubber and 20 sulfur
to make 1 mechanical component it costs 15 steel, 20 rubber and 10 flux

no matter what i try in changing prices its the amount of sulfur for making rubber and the amount of rubber for making mechanical parts which offsets the balance.
all the rest is fine.

My suggestion is to lower the demands of sulfur and rubber for making mechanical parts.  this would improve trading as now i get pyrite plenty and other resources to but always in demand for sulfur.  Which everyone else needs to.

I suggest:
1 rubber = 5 natural rubber, 12 sulfur
5 mechanical parts = 15 steel, 12 natural rubber, 10 flux
bumb up the amount of ammo you get by double for same amount of resources

or
you could bump up the amount of sulfur mined by 60%

I have not added energy weapons since I have not researched those yet.

[BobTheFish]

Suggestion: Add a trading quest. This could be general like "Buy something from a trading station" or specific like "Set up a market stocked with coffee beans."

This is just a gut feeling but I think people seem to see only two ways to get resources and technologies: grinding or raiding. In reality there is a third option: trading. Players are trying to grind to unlock high tier technologies when they could be instead specialising and trading. Adding trading as a quest should make sure new players are aware of it. Similarly players are walking across the large map to grind for resources; it would make more sense for players local to that region to do the grinding and put the excess resources up for sale. I also think it would be good to have a number of indestructible market hubs around the map (in middle-ish areas) which players can use to do their trading. Even better could be if these hubs worked like the land claim (all have the same items in them). That way boreal players could visit the northern hub and tropical players could visit the southern hub, but they would still be able to trade with each other (saves walking). You could extend this even further by making all player-built trading stations work from a central trading system so everyone can trade from within the safety of their own base, but this is possibly not in keeping with the dangerous tone of the game.

Three things in the trading system that could be improved are:
1) Accessibility: It's only available at high-tier. It would be great to have a low-tier market structure. I suggest that it would be set up to trade item-for-item rather than coins, so that coin-based commerce is still a high-tier objective.
2) Usability: Currently the only way to know what a market stall is trading is to walk all the way to it. If there was a way to view market information, for example from the map interface, then you could plan your trading journeys in advance so it would be easier.
3) Motivation: There could be more need for trading, right now a clan can get everything they need easily by themselves. If regions had more unique resources and players were encouraged to do trading, then they might be more likely to sell their excess resources and have trading stations requesting resources that are far from their base. For example coffee beans should only be available in the tropics, and oil berries are only available in the boreal region, so it would make sense to trade.

[Lurler]

While I agree on a premise - not everyone wants to trade and forcing people through quests isn't really a good idea.
Quests are designed to explain things that everyone would be doing during a normal play-through, while trading is completely optional, hence it is not part of a quest.

In regards to map preview of the trading station - it is definitely planned for the future, but currently we must finish a few other things first.

Well, anyway, we definitely want to expand on trading as it's an important part of the game!

[BobTheFish]

Thank you for your reply! I had assumed trading was part of your original vision for a normal play-through.

Great to hear you have plans to expand on trading. There are plenty of new things each patch without it, so there's no rush of course, especially if trading is not something everybody is into.

[Ghullez]

What about adding ability to link boxes to trading machines? Freezers, or fridges for trading food, large boxes to store raw materials.  This will cut the need to make new trading machines or their types, like refrigerated trading boxes, liquid trading boxes etc. and make them more modular. For example:

I place the trading machines outside of my base, in a place with walls, doors set to public, so anybody can get in and trade.

Inside the safety of my base i have set up 2 fridges and 2 large storage boxes for trading, fridges filled with sandwiches, and storage boxes for raw materials ( As payment )

I link together the fridges and boxes with the trading machines. Fridges are set to Export, as i am intended to sell the stuff from them, storage boxes are set to import as i want them to collect payment ) Export/Import could be mixed, for example i sell 1 Iron ore for 2 Sands, and i buy 1 Iron ore for 1 Sand, without adding additional boxes.

After some time i decided to sell my gasoline as i have too much of it in stock. I place the barrel in the reach of trading machine. Customer would need to have his own container for the liquid in order to fill it up, buy a canister for additional price, or bring his own empty canisters for replacement.

The trade machines should have rather big trading distances, so people could build nice markets, and make them look nice, instead of box outside the base.

[ai_enabled]

@Ghullez, thank you for your ideas and suggestions. The idea of linking the trading terminal with a crate or fridge on the base is the one we're already thinking about for some time and added it in the roadmap here https://trello.com/c/v8vvEbYI/78-reworked-trading-system Your idea is more detailed than we thought with several inputs/outputs (import/export containers as I understood).
The ability to buy/sell liquids is requested quite often so with this new system we can also consider implementing it as you've proposed.

Regards!

[Salvick]

Hi guys, great ideas here and it is nice to see what is being planned to add it to the game soon.

I was just thinking about making the trading post visible on map as an option, so if someone choose to keep the trading post hidden from the map and arrange his trades privately we could provide the map coordinates or such like that instead.

I came with this idea basically because I was experimenting with some structures in the map editor and added a bunch of trading posts that ended up being a bit annoying in the map but I'm not sure if anyone else would like this idea.

There goes my two cents. Regards everyone!