Author Topic: My Ideas  (Read 392 times)

ratzlaff

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My Ideas
« on: January 08, 2019, 08:41:52 pm »
1. At the moment my greatest wish is to reduce the long walking, even more if you plan to make the map even bigger.

I know something like teleporters are planned and I look forward to them. But they may be something of a late-game feature right?

Another idea for this: Something like a bike, which gives running speed 4x.
To balance this for combat:
-Short Setup time, where you need to be static.
-If you get hit while you are on a bike you are stunned, or lose some portion of health or bleed or something to make it dangerous to use bike in a fight. Shooting could also be disabled.
Note: It doenst have to be a bike, could be a mule, I just like to have that function. If its an animal you would have to feed it and so on.

2. A pump with a higher throughput than the current well, tier 2/3, higher building costs.

3. All shots from firearms should be tracer rounds if technical feasible, so you get instant feedback where you shoot. If they are hitscan, an instant line would be ok.

4. Recycling (tech and building)
You can put any intermediate product in and it will give you a part of the original ingridients back.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 10:03:39 pm by ratzlaff »

Lurler

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2019, 02:25:02 am »
Thank you for your suggestions! :)
Let me reply to each.

1. At the moment my greatest wish is to reduce the long walking, even more if you plan to make the map even bigger.
I know something like teleporters are planned and I look forward to them. But they may be something of a late-game feature right?
Another idea for this: Something like a bike, which gives running speed 4x.
Yes, as you said - teleportation is planned in the future.
And we do also plan to add some for of vehicles.
But it's not as easy as it seems as the game is in 3/4 2D view which makes rotation very difficult.
So we will introduce such features a bit later.

2. A pump with a higher throughput than the current well, tier 2/3, higher building costs.
Yes, when we add electricity in the game we will also add water pumps to make water acquisition easier.
And in the next update we also added even lower tier of cheap water collector.

3. All shots from firearms should be tracer rounds if technical feasible, so you get instant feedback where you shoot. If they are hitscan, an instant line would be ok.
We are currently experimenting with it.
Hopefully we can add it relatively soon.

4. Recycling (tech and building)
You can put any intermediate product in and it will give you a part of the original ingridients back.
Unfortunately it is not possible as there is no single recipe for each item. Plus it would remove currently quite effective resource sink and would make it a game of hoarding :)
Even if players don't like resource sinks it actually makes for a much better game if you look at a broader picture.

ratzlaff

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2019, 04:51:46 am »
Thanks a lot for taking the time!

Warbot

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2019, 06:07:42 pm »
That all sounds nice for sure,
but I'd highly object one thing: teleportation

IF there would be a bigger map and more players,
up to a point where scouting the map would be a thing, and you would not instantly know where everyones bases are...

Things like more speed or teleportation counter that, which sounds convenient, yes, but tends to break what a bigger map offers.

There is a concept called "power projection" which means that a group which is by combination of numbers, play time and skill, the "best",
can not just wipe out the whole map (which is trivial in the current game for any such group),
Simply due to the small detail that distance hinders you, and you can not be everywhere at once.

Therefore I'd say teleportation and vehicles or other speed enhancements are a bad thing for anything but a short lived "melee" server.
(*melee meaning "all vs all" and all out pvp)

ratzlaff

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2019, 01:11:37 am »
Well, just don't look at it from this angle.

Problem 1: Long walking counter, convenience
1 Solution: Teleporter / some kind of fast(er) travel

Problem 2: Possible Power-concentration and with speed -projection
Solution: ?? (if there is any in an rust-like game)

The way I understand you, you could also say that there should be no ranged weapons in game, because they make fights 1-vs-many unbalanced.
It's exaggerated for sure, but I'd like you to rather think of a possible solution to problem 2 than objecting to an all-important feature.

3 Possibilities:

- The player can find every ressource he needs in close vicinity to each other. Problem: Local-only gameplay does prevent player interaction.
- Current state: Travel is encouraged, but you walk all the time when you need to check on ressource and so on.
- Current state + some kind of fast(er) travel. Optimal solution, because you have to scout and walk somewhere first and build the device.

Why is (repeated) walking such a bad thing?

For me, it's the worst. Because you are idle, you need to be on alert (other players and critters) but most of the time nothing happens (maybe picking up some fiber).

So having to walk somewhere 1 or 2 times is ok, but the constant walking a-b and getting ressources back and forth is my biggest gripe with the current game.

Lurler

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2019, 01:24:53 am »
We do have some ideas how to balance travel in a reasonable and interesting manner. For example: for vehicles you will need fuel which would be quite expensive, but offer you the convenience of fast travel as for teleport we are considering only making it possible to teleport completely naked, so if you want to transport resources you would still have to travel normally.

ratzlaff

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2019, 02:02:54 am »
Quote
"only making it possible to teleport completely naked, so if you want to transport resources you would still have to travel normally."

That would completly invalidate teleporting in my opinion.

-> It would be structure, right? Probably with a significant building cost, so its a serious investment.
-> Where to best invest? Traveling routes you take very often.
-> So the best use would be to build one in your base, and one near your (current, with next update) ressource depots.

Why would you want to teleport naked?

Warbot

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2019, 02:21:34 am »
but I'd like you to rather think of a possible solution to problem 2 than objecting to an all-important feature.
...
- Current state + some kind of fast(er) travel. Optimal solution, because you have to scout and walk somewhere first and build the device.
No, neither is it an "all-important feature", neither do you have an "optimal solution"...

First off, what you experience as good or bad does not apply to everyone,
simply assuming you have the one and only valid view on things is quite an arrogant approach.

Yes, there are PvE players like you who would just want to gather resources quick, keep walking to a minimum and not risk too much on long journeys,
and there will be PvE servers for those players, and yes, teleporting might be a good thing there.

For most other players,  shortening the distance by artificial means like teleport would seriously break the game in a variety of ways,
so don't just generalize these things and don't try to force your view onto others without  even differentiating.

Warbot

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2019, 02:26:44 am »
Why would you want to teleport naked?
1.) to prevent abuse, there are quite a lot of bad things you can do with that...
2.) to make it not mandatory

I may add, having teleport buildings can be a bad thing for PvE oriented players, too, as it gives PvP players a simple location to intercept. ;)
Another reason why I'd recommend these for PvE only servers.

ratzlaff

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2019, 03:24:10 am »
Quote
1.) to prevent abuse, there are quite a lot of bad things you can do with that...
2.) to make it not mandatory

You misunderstood. This is why in your opinion teleporting should be naked.

But why should a player ever use teleporting if you can only do it naked? No use case. Teleportation would be useless.

Quote
No, neither is it an "all-important feature", neither do you have an "optimal solution"...blabber blabber.... [...]

I don't think you understand how this forum thing works really.

You state your opinion, and I do the same, maybe others join in.
Yes if I write something here, its my personal view of the matter. Why would I write anything else?

To be frank, if you have reasons why you think that suggestions would be bad for the game etc. I am interested. But please keep you moralising, narrow-minded bullshit out of the discussion.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 03:34:20 am by ratzlaff »

Warbot

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2019, 06:44:18 am »
You misunderstood. This is why in your opinion teleporting should be naked.

But why should a player ever use teleporting if you can only do it naked? No use case. Teleportation would be useless.

I don't think you understand how this forum thing works really.

You state your opinion, and I do the same, maybe others join in.
Yes if I write something here, its my personal view of the matter. Why would I write anything else?

To be frank, if you have reasons why you think that suggestions would be bad for the game etc. I am interested. But please keep you moralising, narrow-minded bullshit out of the discussion.

So I see, you present more of your opinion still without any facts or even any reasoning behind it, yet demand more of that from me whereas I already explained a few things.
...oh, and insulting me will surely make you look more mature and credible, right?

Saying "you are wrong" or "you do not understand" without anything to back that up, without anything at all, is very bad trolling at best.



So, are you only here for trolling, or do you actually have any reasoning to base your opinion on?

ratzlaff

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2019, 07:08:39 am »
Not playing that game here bro.

Quote
But why should a player ever use teleporting if you can only do it naked? No use case. Teleportation would be useless.

Thats my concern at the moment. Why would you?

Warbot

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2019, 07:47:55 am »
Not playing that game here bro.

Thats my concern at the moment. Why would you?

So you do not "play" a "game" here?
Then what is that?!

I see that you disagree with "teleporting naked" because YOU see no use case, and assume there is none, and that everyone should agree with you as your opinion is the only one valid truth here.

Yet, you provide no reasoning at all, why you do not like that restriction, or why it would be bad.

See?


Coming back to EVE-comparisons, there, you can not move anything by "magic" or teleportation, yet, the universe is MUCH bigger, and it takes hours to get from one end to another, even if you would be friendly with all the different groups and people you'd encounter on the way... ^^
Yea I'll try to keep it short.
In EVE, you can also only teleport your character, not your ship, not the implants in your clone body, not the contents of your cargo bay, nothing.
Yet, it is tremendously useful.

A use case, to give you just one:
You have a main base and satellite bases in different corners of the world for the different resources that are there, like, one near the tripple clay, one in the south for rubber, one in the north for oil berries,... just as a purely hypothetical example.
It would be a nice thing to be able to teleport around and do a bit of gather here and there, saving a lot of time walking.
You would also save time while hauling the resources from there, as you'd only need to walk the way once instead of twice (only back to your main base, instead of there and back).

But even a this much restricted teleporting ability would be something I'd object for the reason of being bad for PvP, but ofc totally viable on a PvE server.

Now, do you have actual arguments or reasoning, or is stating your opinion all you can do?   :P

ratzlaff

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2019, 10:12:04 am »
"Why would you" was an actual question, and you found an use case:

Teleport to other base, gather, grab ressources and walk back.  I did not think of that.
Downside: Still a lot of walking.
Might depend on how much the device costs.

Why is it bad for pvp?


Warbot

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Re: My Ideas
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2019, 06:44:17 pm »
"Why would you" was an actual question, and you found an use case:

Teleport to other base, gather, grab ressources and walk back.  I did not think of that.
Downside: Still a lot of walking.
Might depend on how much the device costs.

Why is it bad for pvp?

Well, assuming a bigger map and more players, a few things would be different:
- scouting would be a thing, it would be harder to find and know relevant bases of possible enemies or possible valuable raid targets
- due to distance, any group could only reach so far, as walking costs time, and attacking anything "far away" would need to have a good reason to do so, sacrificing time for travelling and leaving the own base undefended in that time, or splitting the group for prolonged periods to act at different spots at once.

This concept is known as "power projection" which means that a group that is stronger than their neighbours can still only reach over a certain distance without stretching their power too thin to stay competitive.

Unrestricted teleporting, actually, pretty much any form of teleporting, would bypass this limitation and increase the range in that any one group can operate, up to the point where it can reach the whole map again with little effort.
Which nullifies the benefits of a bigger map.
Note: this mainly applies to pvp or "mainly pvp" servers, and is not as much of an issue on a "pve only" or "mostly pve" servers, though there are not yet such distinctions, at least that I know of.